http://collectionofthoughts.com/bbpress/ Collection of Thoughts Topic: Dzogchen...The Self-Perfected Way... en Tue, 06 Jan 2009 21:39:51 +0000 http://collectionofthoughts.com/bbpress/topic/1089/page/8#post-24534 Tue, 25 Nov 2008 05:49:20 +0000 Star 24534@http://collectionofthoughts.com/bbpress/ <p>i had hoped that my recent posts would stimulate more intelligent conversation about where humanity is headed, and the potential within awareness to guide it there...</p> <p>these are things that i am passionate about...but i would hope that others would be too...</p> <p>i am not criticizing the truth in different teachings, just the way that it has been misrepresented over the many years, causing great detriment to many...i am also not nullifying the good that has come from such religious institutions...just searching for a common ground between them, where humanity can flourish...through its own potential to evolve and transcend old patterns...</p> <p>much love and joy...always, star... </p> http://collectionofthoughts.com/bbpress/topic/1089/page/8#post-24527 Sat, 22 Nov 2008 16:27:27 +0000 gankyil 24527@http://collectionofthoughts.com/bbpress/ <p>^^^^ Much, much joy. ;) </p> http://collectionofthoughts.com/bbpress/topic/1089/page/8#post-24525 Sat, 22 Nov 2008 16:23:12 +0000 Star 24525@http://collectionofthoughts.com/bbpress/ <p>sounds like a saying in recovery..."Keep it simple stupid!" LOL...</p> <p>my mind is obsessive and way to complicated at times to do so...but i am getting better! lmao...much joy* </p> http://collectionofthoughts.com/bbpress/topic/1089/page/8#post-24524 Sat, 22 Nov 2008 16:06:36 +0000 gankyil 24524@http://collectionofthoughts.com/bbpress/ <p>Being is conscious and aware.</p> <p>Being is, inescapable.</p> <p>Manifestation of being is not not being, it is samsaric vision.</p> <p>Samsaric vision appears as it is not:</p> <p>When happy, not sad;<br /> When master, not student;<br /> When awake, not asleep;<br /> When truthful, not dishonest;<br /> When sober, not drunk;<br /> When day, not night;<br /> When enlightened, not unenlightened.<br /> and on and on.</p> <p>Being is inescapable. </p> http://collectionofthoughts.com/bbpress/topic/1089/page/8#post-24518 Sat, 22 Nov 2008 05:34:07 +0000 Star 24518@http://collectionofthoughts.com/bbpress/ <p>i thought this a good time to begin discussing religious theories associated with dzogchen that seem to serve no purpose, except to help us live in fantasy land, and look the other way...</p> <p>one of these is the buddhist idea of reincarnation and karma...</p> <p>although biology evolution is being integrated in many of these ideas, especially where it concerns karma...these ideas are still enabling many to look the other way and actually blame others for whatever situation they find themselves in...while sometimes that is the case...it is not the case in the way that these teachings are for the most part being understood...</p> <p>point in case...when the earthquakes happened in China, many stated that it was karma for what they had done to Tibet...not realizing that this is contradictory in and of itself...in regards to...what karmic reasons were there for Tibetans to suffer when China marched in...</p> <p>this misunderstanding or misapplication of these ancient teachings leave much to be desired in reality...</p> <p>the not so new scientific theories of enactivism and evolution biology are helping to understand these ancient teachings in a more responsible way...</p> <p>in a sense, we are inheriting years of human action against the earth...and this has caused ecological disturbances...but this situation has been long in the making...and is not the result of one culture, or any peoples of that culture...although they may have contributed to it...and still contributing to it...as most of us seem to be...</p> <p>take the little children of Darfur...do we actually believe this nonsense that b/c they had done horendous things in previous lives, they are being punished with lack of clean water and food? these are unbelievable to realistic and logical thinking...and only enables those that believe such things to continue to look the other way...stating 'all is perfect' when it is quiet obvious that this world is not perfect.</p> <p>if we continue to take these teachings on a superficial level, and do not apply our brains to critically analyzing these ancient beliefs by making a conscious effort to engage in scientific reality...we will continue to be stuck in these spiritual fantasies of the past...and it will hinder our own conscious evolution. it will also hinder us in coming together as a world to make things better for generations to come, or to even insure that there will be generations to come, or an earth to inhabit...i think it very selfish not to logically look at these things just b/c we don't want to suffer...get real...humans experience pain and joy...at least for now...and sticking our heads in the sand is not going to change that...awareness is of no use if we do not put it to use...awakening to what we are...all of what we are...is senseless if we are not going to make a conscious effort to make things better for all...</p> <p>i also have a big problem with the 'idea' that everything that appears is only a reflection...in the sense that what appears within my own vision is mirrored to me to help me free my own conditioned awareness...it serves no purpose to continue to think that what appears 'out there' is not really out there...or that it wont be still out there once conditioning is worked through, or i am dead and gone...i just can no longer buy that...it helped me at first to think in this way...but i think it is very important for us to determine what is illusory and what is not...the earth was here billions of years before humans evolved...and the universe even longer...if we continue to dissolve everything to its metaphysical meaning, we will continue to not see reality as it is in our human existence...we do not live at the subatomic level...we are not masters of our energy and cannot disappear into rainbow bodies...we must learn to live realistically and responsibly as humans...being...without our unhealthy, unrealistic, conditioned, conceptual illusions...this is my journey...this is my quest...</p> <p>also, the christian tradition is killing us with these idea's of the apocolypse...and taking the teachings in revelation to be literal...is helping to destroy the earth and it's people with wars, prejudice and conflict...my god is better than your god...we need to grow up, and begin to look at life realistically...start using our brains and fill that empty space up with intelligent knowledge...</p> <p>again, would love to discuss any of this...for any that are reading and are so moved to do so...always, joy...star... </p> http://collectionofthoughts.com/bbpress/topic/1089/page/8#post-24513 Sat, 22 Nov 2008 00:44:54 +0000 Star 24513@http://collectionofthoughts.com/bbpress/ <p>correction: free of all unhealthy conditioning...for i am now convinced that some of our conditioning is necessary to live this human life...it has been passed down through biological evolution for a reason...we have just learned unhealthy, illusory ways of reacting to it...and so, we must unlearn them...again, before i am able to be free of my unhealthy conditioning, i have to recognize it and its processes...</p> <p>i am well aware that dzogchen teachings have the dark retreats, etc...and it is also said that thogal practiced along with trekchod speeds the process up, and i have experienced that as well...but Norbu states emphatically that our very body, mind and voice, and our life experiencing, is the very vehicle we are to use to awaken...and that our very life is our path...and i have found that to be more than sufficient at this time...i have also found, that when awareness wants you to look at something...you have to look at it...so there is a reason for periodic confusion and displacement from abiding or contemplation...hope that makes sense...always, star...</p> <p>p.s. besides, if all i had was abiding bliss to share...how could that possibly help anyone else that does not experience this 24/7? LOL... </p> http://collectionofthoughts.com/bbpress/topic/1089/page/8#post-24511 Fri, 21 Nov 2008 23:07:16 +0000 Star 24511@http://collectionofthoughts.com/bbpress/ <p>that's pretty much on target...conditioning is layered not only through the senses, and in the psyche, but also in the body itself...we can say all day that conditioned awareness is illusory...but the fact of the matter is this...as long as we have a body, mind, and voice...we are conditioned as human...and i am convinced there is a reason...so instead of fighting that fact, as i use to do, i accept it now, and try to understand moment by moment what exactly my purpose is in that moment...before i can help anyone else...i have to understand my own being...body, mind, and voice...and that continues to take me inward with my investigation...</p> <p>example...we hold emotions within the body...most the time we don't pay attention to what our bodies are telling us...we just focus on something else, which takes our mind off of whatever problem we are experiencing in the body...and so, our bodies experience disease...unless we are able to tap into that healing stream of pure awareness...but even then, conditioning is so inbedded that it continues to react...in the alaya of habits...there is continual grasping...noticing that grasping, feeling it physically...i think, is crucial in understanding it...iow, when it occurs, why it occurs, what interactions seem to triger it...etc...we can only go beyond our limits when we recognize and accept our limits and understand why they are there...</p> <p>also, our energy plays a big part in this...i have a breathing problem of sorts...due to a severe fall i took when i was very young, and a later accident compounded it, and then things that happened even later made it even worse...it is so much better today...i have not had a severe reaction in quiet a while...</p> <p>at the bottom line, i think it is fear...but regardless, i do have some real physical injuries that contribute to my difficulty in breathing...and they seem to be triggered by interaction with life...if that makes any sense...now the ability to rest in the primordial state is amazingly healing, but a while back i had to do some secondary practices in yoga to release a lot of blocked energy...</p> <p>if i had the finances i would go to a neuromuscular therapist or someone qualified in accupunture...but i am stuck with..."physician heal thyself"...lol</p> <p>now, i agree that remaining in one's true nature is the ultimate remedy...but when you are actually taking that and integrating it with your living experiences...it becomes a process like anything else...at least that has been my experience...and you must stay aware as to what is going on within your body, mind, and voice...</p> <p>and yes, interacting with others whether it be on the internet or in real life, always brings more conditioned process for me to make myself aware of...</p> <p>example...i love isolating...REALLY...i suppose it has become my own little bubble of bliss...but off and on, i have questioned whether or not there was a need for me to do otherwise...so, sometimes i step into other worldspaces...later wondering why...i went to a meeting last night with my son...and got a headache from hearing this dude go on and on about this and that...lol...then i got pissed off at myself for being irritated...LMAO...it was crazy...i came home and my mind would not leave me alone about it...i am just going to accept the fact right now that there is a reason that i need to isolate...to stabelize more...like those tibetan dudes that hold up in their caves...LOL...but the truth is, i learn more about my conditioned self when i interact with others...it is not always pleasant...for i have the tendency to question everything...it is called rigorous self-honesty...and sometimes it makes me crazy...</p> <p>i have a very difficult time still...allowing myself to be human i suppose...it is very easy when i am alone in my bliss...harder when i have to take that and live life on life's terms...it's a process...a journey...and i am way cool with it...don't misunderstand...i love my life...but it is a learning process to fly free...to pretend that i am not human...and still conditioned...would be a lie...i realize you suggested to me to fake it till i make it...i can't really do that...i firmly believe we have to walk the path we are on...to do otherwise would place me in denial...i don't want to escape anymore...not through drugs or spirituality...dzogchen is about learning to live free from all cages...i am content to face what i need to face as the universe unfolds, and as awareness reveals itself...</p> <p>i am more and more convinced that my journey is one of learning to live as a human...being...free of all conceptual cages...free of all conditioning...but human none-the-less...hope that makes sense...your feedback is and will be appreciated...it is so nice to be able to talk like this with someone that has an initmate knowledge of what i am talking about...lol...always, star... </p> http://collectionofthoughts.com/bbpress/topic/1089/page/8#post-24508 Fri, 21 Nov 2008 14:22:56 +0000 gankyil 24508@http://collectionofthoughts.com/bbpress/ <p>Hi Star,</p> <p>Would you help me out here? I’d like to arrive at an agreement of word choice so we don’t muddy things up. This is a small point, I know, and there’s no judgment here whatsoever. : ) I imagine I know what you’re getting at, so let me know if I’m not on the same page. “Conditioned awareness” is an oxymoron, wouldn't you agree? I think you are looking to experience how you are affected by interacting, what you feel as a result of it, etc., then see how it plays out. Is this even close? </p> http://collectionofthoughts.com/bbpress/topic/1089/page/8#post-24506 Fri, 21 Nov 2008 07:43:24 +0000 Star 24506@http://collectionofthoughts.com/bbpress/ <p>conditioned awareness is what is challenged...our conditioned beliefs...feelings...etc...</p> <p>whenever i read someone elses post, i am challenged to try and look at things from their pov...and question my own...which further opens up awareness...by challenging its conditioning...keeping with that nonconceptual open space...</p> <p>have recently been thinking about the trinity of all things...</p> <p>time, space, and knowledge inparticular...i find it fascinating...the many layers of conditioning...and even more so, the experiencing of it as it rises and falls within abiding awareness...it's a trip! lol... </p> http://collectionofthoughts.com/bbpress/topic/1089/page/8#post-24505 Fri, 21 Nov 2008 03:48:39 +0000 gankyil 24505@http://collectionofthoughts.com/bbpress/ <p>How can we challange awareness? </p> http://collectionofthoughts.com/bbpress/topic/1089/page/8#post-24499 Thu, 20 Nov 2008 22:29:09 +0000 Star 24499@http://collectionofthoughts.com/bbpress/ <p>it's fun! lol...and very revealing... </p> http://collectionofthoughts.com/bbpress/topic/1089/page/8#post-24496 Thu, 20 Nov 2008 15:43:50 +0000 gankyil 24496@http://collectionofthoughts.com/bbpress/ <p>Dearest sweetheart Star,</p> <p>"challenging my awareness is what i want you all to do..."</p> <p>why? </p> http://collectionofthoughts.com/bbpress/topic/1089/page/8#post-24479 Thu, 20 Nov 2008 04:00:01 +0000 Star 24479@http://collectionofthoughts.com/bbpress/ <p>for all intent and purposes, i find the 'idea' of a master/teacher/guru/etc. to hinder one somewhat...it prevents one from taking responibility for their own awakening...and from relying on their own awareness...thus..."kill the buddha"...may have more than one meaning...</p> <p>if a master/teacher/guru/etc. had the power to awaken someone...would not buddha and jesus been able to do so? instead, it is obvious that many who follow their teachings are stuck instead in the teachings...and have missed the message entirely...however well meaning their intentions may have been...many have followed them, and continue to follow them into the depths of misunderstanding...clinging to ideas instead of investigating their own awareness...which ultimately enables them to recognize their own true nature...</p> <p>this is one area where i depart from the traditions of dzogchen...while i am aware that truth can be mirrored...one must involve themselves in the preliminary work of unconditioning their conditioned awareness...</p> <p>one cannot reveal mind to mind...one can only prepare themselves for awareness to reveal itself...once it does, one must then practice to remain there with no doubt as to what their natural condition is...comparing all different states to the natural state...allowing conditioned awareness to reveal it's secrets...in this way, every experience, every reflection of our own awareness becomes our teacher...</p> <p>the true master...the true teacher...is the one that allows one to take responsibility for their own awakening...while knowledge can be, and is mirrored...the mind that it is mirrored to, must be ready to accept...a clarity of awareness is a prerequisite...that means already there has been work done by the individual to remove conceptual beliefs from their condtioned awareness...</p> <p>as long as one continues to cling and grasp to concrete ideas, such as a master or a teacher...or a teaching...these condtions will continue to get in the way of their own journey...</p> <p>what has been very helpful along my journey, is the scientific knowledge that has been bubbling to the surface for quiet some time now...it is a wonderful time of knowledge...and we have come to a great precipice in humanity and awareness...where science and spirituality are evolving into a natural whole...</p> <p>i find the time is perfect for this new story to emerge...a time to let go of our old ideas...and embrace the evolution of our own humanity...</p> <p>a time when great scientific minds, and those that are spiritual, can use both truths, and allow the unfolding of their unity...</p> <p>but as usual, i would welcome any of your ideas concerning this transition...so don't be shy...challenging my awareness is what i want you all to do...</p> <p>always, star... </p> http://collectionofthoughts.com/bbpress/topic/1089/page/8#post-24467 Tue, 18 Nov 2008 11:12:23 +0000 abstractprophet 24467@http://collectionofthoughts.com/bbpress/ <p>cool post gankyil.</p> <p>thanks for sharing. </p> http://collectionofthoughts.com/bbpress/topic/1089/page/8#post-24465 Tue, 18 Nov 2008 08:40:50 +0000 Star 24465@http://collectionofthoughts.com/bbpress/ <p>now it is time to go swimming... </p> http://collectionofthoughts.com/bbpress/topic/1089/page/8#post-24464 Tue, 18 Nov 2008 07:03:45 +0000 gankyil 24464@http://collectionofthoughts.com/bbpress/ <p>Dear friends,</p> <p>I have written this passage to share and shed light on beginnings; the striving in a student combined with the direct introduction by an authentic master. Reading it, unfortunately, can not substitute an authentic experience. This must be derived by developing a living master/student relationship in openness and devotion. Guru yoga is the prerequisite here, which is more like a flowing stream than an upstart. This is the first step emphatically instructed by every teacher of dzogchen. Everyone is different and every introduction is entirely dependant on the unique relationship developed and unto itself. The common marker is genuine authenticity stemming from the “heart center” of master and student. </p> <p>A direct introduction by a master:</p> <p>One day, in the east end of mid land, were we grew up and from which we have never ventured, we come across the picture of an ocean. Fascinated by it, we begin to investigate the concept. Before long, our room is filled with pictures of oceans. We have read books about it, we have cds playing continuous sounds of waves breaking and gulls crying. We have poured sand all over the floor, and have bowls of seawater placed reverently on every available surface. We love the ocean. </p> <p>Then one day we present all our findings to our favorite teacher. We offer a lecture to our class mates on the marvels of the oceanic essences. We open up the floor for discussion. We are asked about this aspect, and that aspect, and answer each one directly. Then our teacher asks: “which oceans have we been to?” To which we must reply: “none.” We have only imagined what it would be like to have the experience of being at the ocean.</p> <p>The teacher tells us our fantasy is about to become a reality. It is organized to take us to the ocean. We are very grateful to have such a wonderful teacher that would do this for us. The journey is relatively short, about an hour’s travel. We become very excited, and full of anticipation. Our mind is alit with all sorts of ideas about what it will be like. Our teacher blindfolds us and we arrive. We are led to the viewing point, trusting all the while our teacher will help us not to stumble. Then the blind fold comes off and we experience ourselves at the beach. This is beyond anything we could have possibly imagined, the real experience of being at the ocean. We have arrived. We love the ocean.</p> <p>Then our teacher sits us down. The sun is warm, the sand is smooth, the water is wet, and we are happy. We love being at the ocean. We enter into a conversation about being there. Our teacher is wonderful because they brought us into the experience of ocean. We talk and talk and talk, and everything is in perfect agreement. We are happy and feel love. We settle back and relax into just being there. There seems no need to talk at all. We just look at each other: the teacher, the student, and the ocean in perfect agreement, relaxed and feeling great joy, and each knowing in this love. Somehow, in a flash and off guard, awareness blooms. The teacher, the student, the ocean, the gratitude, and the love simultaneously are aware as one. Our small love knows Great Love, overwhelming and evaporating, expanding and expanding, floating out and beyond. Perfect clear light is all there is, conscious and aware, nothing discerning - essence of primordial mind. </p> <p>This is much more than we dreamed of, much more than our ordinary experiencing could have ever discerned, beyond any concept, beyond any doubt. It is beyond any doubt because the shared experience bared witness to its authenticity. In this way the student begins. </p> http://collectionofthoughts.com/bbpress/topic/1089/page/8#post-24463 Mon, 17 Nov 2008 21:51:49 +0000 Star 24463@http://collectionofthoughts.com/bbpress/ <p>shin, what more can one say about the two truths, than the need to experience them in their complete truth? they are not two distinct truths, as you know...samsara IS nirvana...the intellectual understanding is important...but what is most important is that we experience our own true nature and remain there with no doubt...that is the entirity of the relevance of the two truths...</p> <p>i agree it has become problamatic for many, and they still seem to separate the spiritual from the physical...to realize that nothing separates them...is to taste one's own true nature...</p> <p>Norbu speaks of this many times, using the example of the mirror...and although it is in our language, of necessity to break the whole down into conceptual layers to explain it, it is always noted that this is not to be understood as such...</p> <p>our minds and lives are so preoccupied with teachings, that we fail to just relax into our own being, and just experience what we have learned...all the teachings are FULL of truth...but we become attached to the words and ways, and miss the message all together...let's face the truth here...many of us do not want our lives...we still want an easy escape...there is not one...dzogchen or otherwise...again, this is what i love about dzogchen...it uses our very life for our awakening journey...our very body, mind, and voice is our vehicle...our very path, our day to day living, brings everything we need to wake up and look honestly at ourselves and our own truth of being...</p> <p>gankyil, yes i am very passionate about the actual practice of contemplation...that IS the beginning...to taste your own truth of being...to relax into your own true nature...you need not follow any teaching to do so...</p> <p>looking honestly at our conditioning is not pleasant...it is hard work...and anyone that says otherwise does not know what they are talking about...everyone still wants an easier, softer, way...and many think that dzogchen offers this...the way out of a cage is first to recognize the cage...this takes looking at yourself...your own feelings, thoughts, beliefs, and actions...honestly...</p> <p>truth is not found anywhere other than within your own being...your own awareness...</p> <p>be well my friends, and thank you both for your contributions...always, star... </p> http://collectionofthoughts.com/bbpress/topic/1089/page/8#post-24462 Mon, 17 Nov 2008 21:29:11 +0000 gankyil 24462@http://collectionofthoughts.com/bbpress/ <p>Shin,</p> <p>Interest is here. lol </p> <p>Perhaps, you have a reference or link to the "Two Truths Theory" for consideration (if already posted here, where?).</p> <p>I'm sure we will be able to stay on topic. It is difficult to have a discussion about water without using the word wetness. lol All paths lead to enlightenmentnemnethgilne ot dael shtap llA. ;) </p> http://collectionofthoughts.com/bbpress/topic/1089/page/8#post-24461 Mon, 17 Nov 2008 16:29:57 +0000 gankyil 24461@http://collectionofthoughts.com/bbpress/ <p>Star,</p> <p>Thank you for sharing all that. I look forward to meeting your friends. :)</p> <p>--"you are speaking about someone who does not have clarity of awareness"</p> <p>Yes, there is no where else to begin. I was addressing the use, implications, and pitfalls of the word "striving" as it pertains to dzogchen and direct introduction (beginning). Words are often spoken as direct introduction is being made. As in all teaching transmissions (these paths are considered interdependant of each other in as much as they eminate from " ") there is a proper way to begin, continue, and complete them, all of which, are, of course, unique unto each teacher/student's living relationship.</p> <p>btw. It is wonderful that you are so passionate about all this. </p> http://collectionofthoughts.com/bbpress/topic/1089/page/8#post-24460 Mon, 17 Nov 2008 15:23:37 +0000 shin 24460@http://collectionofthoughts.com/bbpress/ <p>[quote] If students were instructed, prior to maturation, that achievement were non relevant, this could, understandably, be mistaken for “nothing to achieve”, and no beginning would occur. The consequences of which are also likened to lying about as adults, wallowing in our own feces, and crying out to be fed. [/quote]</p> <p>The "Two Truths Theory" of Chinese Buddhism addresses this in the most excellent and simple way. Alas, despite numerous references in my posts I have never been able to arouse any interest in it. </p> http://collectionofthoughts.com/bbpress/topic/1089/page/7#post-24458 Mon, 17 Nov 2008 07:15:02 +0000 Star 24458@http://collectionofthoughts.com/bbpress/ <p>p.s. you are a newcomer to this forum, but i can assure you, that most posting here, came here from another spiritual forum, and those of us that did, have been over, under, through, around...and every other way that can be achieved regarding the conceptual discourses...many times...some are still stuck in the teachings, regardless of their experiences...i'm not...</p> <p>some of the conceptual wars are still going on...but i don't participate in much of it anymore...i have grown very tired of conceptual dualing...but if it is brought up on this thread, i am very quick to address it...as today i can see through it, to the truth...and this thread is about experiencing one's true nature, and abiding there...in this life, as a human being...</p> <p>thank you for your contributions...always, star... </p> http://collectionofthoughts.com/bbpress/topic/1089/page/7#post-24457 Mon, 17 Nov 2008 06:35:43 +0000 Star 24457@http://collectionofthoughts.com/bbpress/ <p>gankyil, you are speaking about someone who does not have clarity of awareness to recognize their own true nature...only they can know that for sure...in that case, there are many secondary teachings...which i have previously stated in this thread, are not Dzogchen Atiyoga...the tantra's are one of many...</p> <p>Dzogchen Atiyoga applies only to those that are able to recognize their true condition...and is a path in and of itself, characterized by Garab Dorje's three statements...which i have also stressed throughout this thread...</p> <p>i am only sharing my journey and understanding of the practice, and am in no way trying to teach the secondary teachings...i have no desire to do that...and a very limited knowledge of them in fact...as my secondary vehicle was christianity, especially gnostic christianity, and then Wei Wu Wei, and physics...the steps of recovery...and interaction on spiritual forums...and living life on life's terms...</p> <p>however; once i was able to recognize my own true nature, i was instructed by Norbu in his various books, to use this very human vehicle to awaken...to overcome karmic vision and conditioned awareness as it is presented in my very experience of living life...in the now...</p> <p>many on this forum have already experienced their own true nature...but as you well know, experiencing it, and living in it, are two very different things...</p> <p>several of us go back for several years...i have just really been sharing my journey with them...and my understanding of it...i am not trying to teach them anything really...just sharing...in fact, they teach me when they post and challenge my awareness...</p> <p>so, in the sense of starting where they are...it would not have been helpful at all for me to come here after all we have been through together on this forum and a previous one and try and tell them concerning their experience...</p> <p>all i have tried to do is share how i have practiced to remain in my own true nature...and what has occurred along the way...while living my life...</p> <p>and since i am not privey to any secret teachings, as i am not a member of the dzogchen communities, i have not put anything on this thread that cannot be bought in books online at amazon or read on links from google...except maybe my own experiences, which so far are not metaphysical, mystic, or any more magical than the magic of the real...lol...so no need to alert the dzogchen police...LOL</p> <p>i stated early on in this thread that i am not a typical dzogchen practicioner...although i do use the three statements by Garab Dorje', and i do have many books by Norbu, and a few by teachers from the Bon tradition...i am in no way your typical practicioner...even Norbu himself says that Dzogchen cannot be put in a Buddhist or Bon cage...it is the primordial state, and is not limited to any teaching...</p> <p>i have mostly found my own way...other's have been mirrors of awareness...but in the end...the only guru or teacher there ever really is...is the one within your own awareness...</p> <p>may you be well...always, star... </p> http://collectionofthoughts.com/bbpress/topic/1089/page/7#post-24455 Mon, 17 Nov 2008 04:07:28 +0000 gankyil 24455@http://collectionofthoughts.com/bbpress/ <p>^<br /> This is correct. The unconditioned condition of conscious awareness is spotless.</p> <p>The Mother Tantra translates conscious awareness as inseparable, and characterizes this as clear, spotless, open, unchanged, etc. It deals with everything “up to” (denoting action, e.g.: “walk up to the wall”), beyond this point instruction is unnecessary.</p> <p>In the teaching “striving” is implied purposely, for the sake of instruction, to denote the bench marks of progress. This progress is often likened to the progress of human agility from infancy through maturity. If students were instructed, prior to maturation, that achievement were non relevant, this could, understandably, be mistaken for “nothing to achieve”, and no beginning would occur. The consequences of which are also likened to lying about as adults, wallowing in our own feces, and crying out to be fed.</p> <p>It is understood that everything can be reduced to a non objective action of self (illusory). To start there, given the human condition (samsaric), would be of little use to many. Words are employed, and subject:object descriptions have proven useful to allow discussion, the mind to rest upon them, and/or point to the object less condition of awareness. </p> http://collectionofthoughts.com/bbpress/topic/1089/page/7#post-24454 Mon, 17 Nov 2008 01:08:41 +0000 Star 24454@http://collectionofthoughts.com/bbpress/ <p>excellent post...i agree completely...i would only add, that the striving is also seen or realized, as illusion itself...and therefore, achievement is nonrelevant...conditioned awareness, or sems, is what actually strives and achieves...and since sems is actually effugent and essence rigpa...which is all there is, then that which is not, is only illusory... </p> http://collectionofthoughts.com/bbpress/topic/1089/page/7#post-24453 Sun, 16 Nov 2008 19:47:11 +0000 gankyil 24453@http://collectionofthoughts.com/bbpress/ <p>Attaining Enlightenment, or if you prefer, Total Realization, is an achievement. </p> <p>Why is the word achievement used? It is used because we are acting upon ourselves, our condition, and by doing so enlightenment/total realization shines through.</p> <p>If there is nothing to achieve, then why strive?</p> <p>If, by striving, we discover primordial awareness shining through then we can compare dual and non-dual conditions, at which point abiding takes place in both conditions.</p> <p>If in comparing we discover primordial awareness is our constant condition, it becomes clear that duality is inconstant.</p> <p>In discovering our constant condition, abiding thus becomes identifiable. </p> <p>Abiding thus, dualism has no ground; cause and effect can not take root.</p> <p>Continuously abiding thus (in all activity: awake and asleep) is effortless striving; the base, path, and fruit of Dzogchen. This is not to say that activity ceases, but we are freed gradually from previous conditioning, and freed spontaneously from further conditioning.</p> <p>Garab Dorje directs: “… One continues right up to Total Enlightenment/Realization”.</p> <p>This can be considered the spotless, unconditioned condition of conscious awareness; the son’s light and the mother’s light enveloped; the enlightenment/realization that “these lights” were never “these”, but one; the "up to" point beyond which is beyond words. </p> http://collectionofthoughts.com/bbpress/topic/1089/page/7#post-24418 Fri, 31 Oct 2008 19:52:53 +0000 Star 24418@http://collectionofthoughts.com/bbpress/ <p>shin, i disagree that the spiritual must be walked away from...it can be a successful path if one is able to discern and use it to recognize their own true nature and move forward...instead of getting trapped by it's concrete idea's...i agree that it's conceptual idea's must be walked away from...and i would also agree that the spiritual vehicle, which is only pointing to the truth, must be discarded, or seen for what it is...when truth is experienced...</p> <p>this is what i love about dzogchen...it takes the very vehicle of body, mind, and voice...and encourages one to live life as a human...while recognizing and remaining in one's own true nature...free of conditioning...it does not separate the human from it's being...which is what religious and spiritual methods have done for centuries...it celebrates our humanity...like you said so long ago my friend...THE PHYSICAL IS SPIRITUAL...and vice versa...they are not separate...at least this is my experience of my true condition right now...to experience your true nature or being...in this human form...living, breathing...the awe of life...to love...to cry...to feel joy...to be...to watch the universe dance...and be a living part of that dance...to be present...each moment...alive to this existence...is truly being alive...</p> <p>now i am aware that the deeper teachings of dzogchen are focused towards the rainbow body and such, but i am not concerned with all of that...i am to busy learning how to live this awe of being as human...and that is exactly what dzogchen encourages you to do...i am a body, mind, and voice...and there is soooooooooooooo much potential and infinite possibility in that...of course, i could die of a heart attack too...more reason to enjoy the now...and live it to it's upmost...lol...</p> <p>my practice is opening up alot these days...it has many challenges of conditioning...especially when i interact with different worldspaces...but i am integrating...and when i face those challenges openly and honestly...i am consumed by my own true nature of being...and that my friend is awesome...</p> <p>it is like being a little bird, learning to fly free of all cages...it takes just doing it...but today...i celebrate my human existence...awareness has breathed me human...and i am dancing in the emptiness of bliss...the magic of the real...</p> <p>for those that still think that to be 'spiritual' means not to use your brain...i say ridiculousnessness...the intellect is a marvouslous thing...just like our sight...or our ability to feel and touch and love and cry...this is an amazing journey...and where ever it takes me is less important then experiencing it for all that it is right here right now...</p> <p>may we all be filled with our own inner joy...always, star... </p> http://collectionofthoughts.com/bbpress/topic/1089/page/7#post-24415 Fri, 31 Oct 2008 02:36:41 +0000 abstractprophet 24415@http://collectionofthoughts.com/bbpress/ <p>shin</p> <p>so what is immeasurable is without end and thus the journey must also be seen as such too?</p> <p>regarding the communication, do you agree that actions speak far louder than words? </p> <p>:o) </p> http://collectionofthoughts.com/bbpress/topic/1089/page/7#post-24408 Thu, 30 Oct 2008 07:00:07 +0000 Star 24408@http://collectionofthoughts.com/bbpress/ <p>first you have to recognize the crap...then you have to really want to stop stepping in it...it is much like potty training a baby...babies get attached to their own shit, and it's comfortable...it has to be realized that shit belongs in the toilet...once you get rid of all that shit...what is left...is a blissful babies bottom! LOL... </p> http://collectionofthoughts.com/bbpress/topic/1089/page/7#post-24407 Thu, 30 Oct 2008 00:59:44 +0000 shin 24407@http://collectionofthoughts.com/bbpress/ <p>"so many are still looking to escape this human existence, even through spirituality,"</p> <p>... *especially* through spirituality. </p> <p>The vehicle which transports us into another life, past lives, future lives. If they are better we have hope, if they are worse, we can feel better about the now by comparing it with the past (or future).</p> <p>What we do not want, most of the time, is to live in the now, because that is crap, because we think *we* are crap, and whereever you go there *you* are too. The crap follows you.</p> <p>Make peace with it, which is easy as it is made up by yourself. Drop it and walk away. Drop this spirituality stuff, walk, and do not look back. </p> http://collectionofthoughts.com/bbpress/topic/1089/page/7#post-24406 Mon, 27 Oct 2008 22:45:46 +0000 Star 24406@http://collectionofthoughts.com/bbpress/ <p>choose the tao...</p> <p>i cannot rescue you...you must learn to spread your wings...<br /> to fly free from your cage...just listen to your heart it sings...<br /> your cage is just illusion...the sky is there for you to fly...<br /> see through all confusion...there is no other better high...<br /> the universe unfolds...you choose the path you're on...<br /> you can choose another way...whether to or not to play...<br /> all within this moment now...you can choose the tao...<br /> there is a world beyond your world...this moment you can find...<br /> peace and bliss within your being...leave suffering behind...<br /> within your darkest moment...you can breath the awe you are...<br /> open up your soul to light...and dance on every star...<br /> the universe unfolds...you choose the path you're on...<br /> you can choose another way...whether to or not to play...<br /> all within this moment now...you can choose the tao...<br /> melt into this moment...melt into just what you are...<br /> in a house or in a field...the mountain top's not far...<br /> freedom is within you...that's where happiness is found...<br /> the truth of what you are...never caged...never bound...<br /> the universe unfolds...you choose the path you're on...<br /> you can choose another way...whether to or not to play...<br /> all within this moment now...you can choose the tao...<br /> you only have this moment...feel just what you are within...<br /> fly free in the open sky...each moment life begin...<br /> untangle all attachments...your spirit it was meant to soar...<br /> spread your wings and fly with me...your heart's an open door...<br /> universe unfolds...you choose the path you're on...<br /> you can choose another way...whether to or not to play...<br /> all within this moment now...you can choose the tao...<br /> StarLight Dancing... </p>