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Dzogchen...The Self-Perfected Way...
(241 posts)-
nutt, the bridge that you refer to, in Dzogchen, can also be referred to as the path, or the life, that awareness is experiencing in this vehicle, or body.
the ground or the base, is your own true nature, free of the abyss.
the abyss, is of course the illusional way we perceive all that is and all that is not.
the fruit of the practice is to recognize this, and through contemplation, rest in your own true nature, through all your life experiencing.
as far as walking away, you have to live the life you have, would it not be more logical, to live it free of illusion, but live it none-the-less?
what can be accomplished by walking away? you still have you when you walk away, do you not?
Posted 2 years ago # -
And the mind has built these walls... made them into a conceptual system that traps the assumed you that needs to escape. So then the teaching and one to receive it?
Only in the stopping can All that is be all that IS. The whole point of the story of YOU is to escape the story of YOU. And write it mind will.
Yes, carry on as YOU wish... Sorry to interfere.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Indoctrination implies something is added to THAT which is complete. Best to leave that which is, as it IS. Hehehee
Dzogchen is the sky... in which the clouds move, the raindrop falls, the sun shines. No point of reference to the sky... Just what IS.
Though mind will find a point or make one. Then seperate and divide. Thus the apparent bridge to carry the assumed YOU back to before before. And it is well that YOU have found it... now let it go. No need, no enlightenment, no one to enlighten. Never was/is/can be.
So the teacher teaches, the student learns AS IF... Bwahahaaaa
Posted 2 years ago # -
Nutt, there is no mind, no walls, and yes...no you...and even the dance is not, and yet, it all is, as it is...lol
but then, what IS...IS Awareness...and many who have realized this, do not automatically disappear into peace and bliss for eternity, or disappear into a rainbow body...so then it becomes necessary, at least for those of us that still have residual attachments and ego, to practice remaining in the primordial condition, and carry that practice into the very path, or life that the universe brings us...
it is like finding yourself at the base of another mountain...awake...Dzogchen is a way of climbing that mountain. Dzogchen is just another word for Total Completion or the Primordial State, Rigpa is one's own awareness of that. for me it is more understandable then just going around hearing or saying, it is what it is, or it just is, or it is THAT...or all is perfection...etc. although those things might be true, it is still not helpful for those that are still trying to awaken their awareness, or even those who find themselves awake.
of course, if you have reached the top of that mountain, and are in an awakened state of awareness 24/7, you could shed some light on how it happened...and you are not inteferring, i welcome you to the forum; i just want to not make this thread a joke thread, but hey, in my day, i put my two cents worth in many a thread...so...go figure...lol.
Hi Jamie! lol...good to see you...always, star.
Posted 2 years ago # -
As long as you think there is more YOU will seek more... and on and on. Give up! Stop!
What need of more is there? Surely YOU already know what it is that you seek... though it sounds as if YOU simply seek another kind of high maybe?Posted 2 years ago # -
no, actually, did you miss my post or perhaps misunderstand it?
are you able to rest in your primordial state 24/7?
Posted 2 years ago # -
Hi Star, sorry for the disruption. :-) I was glad to see you began this thread, I'd heard of Dzogchen but didn't know much about it. Would you say 'base' is that noticing that noticing never actually noticed? Resting in that, is that what is being conveyed?
Posted 2 years ago # -
Nutt, what Star said here...
"for me it is more understandable then just going around hearing or saying, it is what it is, or it just is, or it is THAT...or all is perfection...etc. although those things might be true, it is still not helpful for those that are still trying to awaken their awareness, or even those who find themselves awake."
Is pretty much what I was going to reply to you with. Saying 'there is no you' is useful as a step, but does not tell you what you are. 'No you' is not the center, it's just a tool. It does no good thinking there is no you, in a way, because there is no you to know that. If there is no you then why does everyone talk sbout the inexistence of you? It's bassackwards thinking, and this is where the inexistent mind comes in pretty handy, logic does play a role in all of this. Logic/intellectualizing won't get you there, but take full of advantage of the ability to use logic in this maze of paradoxes, it's one of your most valuable tools. That's my two cents anyway.
Posted 2 years ago # -
hey Jamie, no disruption at all; it gives me a chance to test my own understanding...lol
the base is the primordial state of each individual, and the universe, often called the ground, Dharmakaya, and the mirror...pure consciousness.
it is incorrect to say that it is this or that, because, it is beyond conceptualization, so anything that one could compare it too would be inaccurate (but we do try! lol), but Rigpa is one's own portion of the primordial state, or true nature, true condition...whatever word we use, it is the state that does not come or go...always present, whether we are aware of it or not, in every instant it is pristine awareness, filled with wisdom and equanimity...and it is what we are; every sentient being has the potential to realize this.
and yes, i would say in the beginning, when one is noticing in the way you said, one is getting little peek-a-boo glimpses of the primordial state...i would say that it happens all the time, we are just not aware of it, so when we do begin resting there, in contemplation (another name for it), it increases our ability to remain in that state, becoming confident of what it is and what it isn't, and then carry it into our every day life experiencing. hope that helps...(*smiles)
Posted 2 years ago # -
Thank you Star. Dzogchen, to me, sounds like the next 'natural' step in the 'process'. Did you notice that you were drawn to contemplating Rigpa before you really knew about Rigpa/Dzogchen? It sounds to me like Dzogchen is what comes 'after', like Wei Wu Wei or other teachings would be the 'fan behind the flame of inquiry' in the beginning.
Posted 2 years ago # -
exactly! i was introduced to 'Rigpa' before i even knew it as such, of course, before it was called Rigpa, it was called Gnosis...it's been called everything under the sun, however; Dzogchen teachings have enabled me to understand what it is that is happening, and has offered a way to practice, one that makes sense...where it is not necessary to go and shave my head, become a buddhist or anything else, recite 100,000 repitions of whatever, become a monk, or go live in a cave...lol...not that any of that is wrong, but that is not my path. all one need do is to rest in their own true condition. Through awareness i was born right here, and none of that has to change, unless of course it does. the point being, whether i am locked up in a cell, on a desert with no water or food, in a cave in Tibet on the highest mountain, or just sitting here writing my little poems from home, Rigpa is ever with me...conditions that are temporary may and will change...that which never was born and never can die...does not...
Posted 2 years ago # -
Well then quantify,qualify, intellectualize... and in the end it never was. But what a ride it is!!!
Does a 24/7/365 state exist? Or would it not then be a state?
In the end all that is added too is mere.........................
Have fun Knowself out heheheheeee
Posted 2 years ago # -
hi knowself! how in the world have you been?
actually, Dzogchen translates Total Completion, and it is beyond intellectualization. in the beginning, the mind is used, it is a valuable analytical tool...but once the concepts crash in on themselves, what is left is nothing, but it is not nothing in the sense that it is not...you cannot definitively say one way or the other, but i know that i am apparently alive, and that Awareness is needed to know that...why not be free of illusion, and rest in that state, and dance the dream awake? Awareness will reveal the rest, or not...lol
and you still did not answer the question. (*smiles)
Posted 2 years ago # -
dang jamie, i did not read your response to nutt until just now, lol...we nearly said the same thing about the analytical mind being a very useful tool...
yes, i would agree, saying that there is no you, is not helpful at this point. when it is realized that what is goes beyond the concept of a you existing as such, and a you not existing as such, neither or both...you still have what is...apparently as a you...lol...
Posted 2 years ago # -
one of the aspects of Dzogchen that i love, is that it gave me back a you, and told me what to do with it.
not in the egoic sense of a you...however, this precious body is the supreme vehicle that one must use along the pathless path of life experiencing awareness.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Invalid question!!!
Easier to write "The sky" or a treatsie on Dzogchen... both reveal the same. Only can be heard when all that is thought known is forgotten, then ALL IS revealed.
If enough weight(concept) is added to the cart(mind) then it will collapse or stop and no one will look SKYwards heheheeee
Who said the analytical mind must be destroyed? Kind of hard to make a living then wouldn`t it!!! Rhetorical mind maybe? heheheee
With Love Star... Steven(just another label)
Posted 2 years ago # -
great discussion... :o)
there are so many ways to build a house... yet when the house is completed it is still a house... and although your neighbours house may be made of wood and yours is of brick they are essentially the same and are both used for dwelling... the only difference is in appearances...
for the record i like Dzogchen... from what i have read i am certain that it offers a view that allows one to see beyond the colour of ones walls...
Posted 2 years ago # -
no one that i know of has said that the analytical mind must be destoyed...in both senses...lol...at least not on this thread!
mind is the reflection of awareness too...how could it not be? however, when mind is realized for what it is and what it is not, then thoughts can rise and cease in that open, limitless, spacious, vast, emptiness that is fused with pristine awareness, where every simultaneous instant of clear wisdom...clinging and nonclinging, attachment, and nonattachment, grasping and nongrasping is self-perfected on it's own.
and no, it is not an invalid question, you are either aware of it or you are not...in the absolute sense, of course you do rest 24/7 in awareness, but mind is very conditioned, and the Dzogchen methods of trechod and togel are very helpful in cutting through illusion, so that one is able to recognize and rest in their own Rigpa. denying our true condition does not make it go away.
has ALL been revealed to the awareness called you? if it has, then you wont mind sharing it...my guess is though, that you are still much in the same vehicle we are all in; if all has been revealed, then why are you not dancing on the rainbow light...literally? or maybe your claim is to Total Transformation...that would mean you control your ability to stay or go in this apparent existence...either way, you should be able to share your experiencing...and noise would not be a deferment.
having a spiritual experience is not the same thing as resting in Rigpa and carrying that practice into your everyday life experiencing...nor is just the awakening of realizing what you are and what you are not...although it is a prerequisite.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Is there one for it to be revealed too? Or is there one after the revelation?
Yeshua spoke of "Little children" Do they know they are little children before they are informed as such?
Around and around it goes... where it stops NObody nos heheheee
Posted 2 years ago # -
it ends and begins within your own awareness of your own Rigpa...where you go from here, depends on you.
Posted 2 years ago # -
just as you got beyond the concept of a you, you must get beyond the concept of a not you...you are neither, you are not both.
Posted 2 years ago # -
it was presented to me in this way:
think of everything that exists...your form, the world, your cat, the stars, etc...
now think of everthing as nonexistent...gone...poof...not there...nothing...
now drop that...
Posted 2 years ago # -
Nutt asked:
Is there one for it to be revealed too? Or is there one after the revelation?there is only awareness.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Bwhahahahaaaa read back through the thread... sorry!
When YOU get there, as if, where will YOU be?
Shhh...Now the secret
Here it comes...
Wait...
Hmmm... must have dropped it! Hehehehee
Anyway... maybe its... just nothing filled with everything. Or something unlike it.
Posted 2 years ago # -
when it is not, it is not...when it is...it is...only you can decide that for yourself.
i am alive, and awareness of that is intact...at least in this instant of awareness!
Posted 2 years ago #
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