exactly...
what is seen is what is seen...
as what is known is what is known...
i am as i am... unless i am not...
yet That Is,,, Was,, Will Ever Be...
who let the nutt out... lol...
Collection of Thoughts » Collection of thoughts
Dzogchen...The Self-Perfected Way...
(241 posts)-
if you guys want to play, that is fine, nothing wrong in that, but i am serious about liberation from suffering, and this path of Dzogchen is working for me and many others, so if you have a serious question, please ask it, if not, can we at least play on another playful thread?
Posted 2 years ago # -
Star... 3rd step prayer...
"Relieve me of the bondage of self"
That is Dzogchen!!
Posted 2 years ago # -
sorry for the imposition star...
what is not play...
what is ever said or thought that is not an invitation to liberation...
do you here the ever present beating at the door of awareness...?
Posted 2 years ago # -
Nutt, i have seen many similarities...all the way back to Bill Wilson's encounter with consciousness.
my own opinion of his being shut out of his own Rigpa and plagued with depression, etc., is that none of the work he did would have been done otherwise...so awareness was and is always in charge! looking out for even drunks and druggies...lol.
AA, is like another path, much like Christianity, or the Buddhist paths of renunciation, or transformation, however; i have found that they all are designed to lead to recognition of the primordial state...if the teachings are not mistaken for the message...and the Primordial State being the base or ground of all.
it is like climbing the mountain path, and upon awakening to what you are, you find yourself at the base of a mountain called Dzogchen...but it is not the same...the path has opened up, not closed by any limits, awareness has none...now it is just you and awareness...now the need for Dzogchen.
Posted 2 years ago # -
star...
i humbly accept that Dzogchen is working for you and others...
if it works it works...
if it doesn't it doesn't...
at your request i will leave this thread now... :o)
Posted 2 years ago # -
abby, i am not asking you to leave, i have no right to do that, and that is not what i want...just that you not make a joke of it all; there may be others that are searching for something of this nature, and with all the silliness of there is no awareness there is no you...which has it's place...but can be very confusing...i just ask respectfully that it not be done on this thread...that is all, of course, i have no control over that, i am just humbly asking it of you. and if you have anything relating to this practice, or any questions or statements about Dzogchen, by all means post them. i hope you understand what is intended.
also, many of the other forums that discuss Dzogchen are unapproachable for many...and where as some may find those threads or discussions intimidating, i want this one not to be...
sincerely, star.
Posted 2 years ago # -
i was not making a joke... i was agreeing with you and then adding...
so what if i was just cracking up at nutt in the same breath... it doesn't take away from what is said unless you allow it...
anyways,,, back to topic...
Posted 2 years ago # -
ok, my bad...(*smiles)
maybe it is a sign that i am becoming attached to the Primordial State...LOL
Posted 2 years ago # -
Thanks for you're replies Star. I will continue reading if you continue sharing. :-)
Posted 2 years ago # -
Oh, I do have a question for you Star. The articles you've shared here seemed easy enough reading, but does Dzogchen get really heavy on some of it's terminology in other places? I never got into Buddism or Advaita because of things like pranja, dharma, skandas, and the like. I had no idea what they meant. That's one thing that was very attracting about WWW, I could understand him. :-)
Posted 2 years ago # -
hi Jamie,
i find pure Dzogchen (Atiyoga) very simple, yet profound. when i began looking into the actual Dzogchen teachings, similarities struck me immediately between the truth that is also hidden in plain sight within every religious system i have come in contact with. it is true that Dzogchen teachings were hidden and mixed with Tibetan culture and Buddhist and Bon Religious systems, and many try and hold the Primordial State hostage, and put it in a Buddhist/Bon cage under lock and key, but is that not also true of Christianity, Judism, and ever other religious school or philosophey when one becomes attached to the teachings and misses the message?
so, there are Tibetan and Buddhist terms that continue to be used in explaining the process, but you and i have already discussed that the noticing of Rigpa had occurred before we ever called it Rigpa right? if you get involved in the vehicles of Buddhism, then yes, you will be immersed in all these words and concepts of renunciation, and transformation, which Norbu explains in his books as NOT being Dzogchen Atiyoga. there seem to be as many paths to reach the Primordial State in Buddhism and Bon as there are religions...lol...but that does not mean you have to follow a conceptual teaching to reach what you can recognize already...this is where i part with many who claim to practice Dzogchen yet insist we recite 100,000 whatever's, renounce everything and take vows, become a Buddhist, read thousands of scripture and practice transformation visualizations for the next ????? years...that is all mindplay, and a distraction from one's true practice.
Dzogchen Atiyoga has absolutely nothing to do with that, although many will tell you that it does, but having cut your conceptual teeth on Wei Wu Wei, as i did, you have a major advantage and should be able to see a concept coming before it ever starts it's journey!
Dzogchen, The Self-Perfected Way by Chogyal Namkhai Norbu is a very simple book, one i have read several times, very easy to understand. he has a profound way of explaining things, and i would suggest it for anyone interested in Dzogchen, Atiyoga. it is easily available online and not real expensive. i started with that one and still continue to use it often.
you will run across terms that are unfamiliar, however; they are explained thourghly, and there is always that little google bar...lol...but Norbu does not overload you with terms, he keeps it basic with the example of the mirror, which i am going to go into detail about on this thread, especially now that i know there is actually an interest from you, David, and Mary.
i tend to use words like true nature, and try and keep it simple...that is what makes the truth profound...it's simplicity...Rigpa is recognized when one relaxes into their own true nature...it is as simple as that...and yet experiencing is very profound. NO ONE, and Norbu even says this throughout his books, can tell another whether or not they are resting in Rigpa or not...that is known only by the individual. we all have our individual portion of Rigpa, or Gnosis, or Pristine Awareness, or True Nature, or Primordial State, or Spirit, or Soul, or Dharmakaya, or Buddhanature, or Christmind, or whatever...
three things are necessary according to Garab Dorje', referred to as the first 'human' teacher of Dzogchen, Atiyoga on earth...(lots of mythology and the like related to these teachings, and remember, it is the message, not how it was transmitted nor how it is remembered as being transmitted, etc.; gnostic christianity is the same way, the only difference is there are missing texts and no logical consistency within what managed to survive in tact as there is within the Dzogchen records.)
1) Direct Introduction.
2) Not To Remain In Doubt.
3) To Continue In The State.
will post more latter.
Posted 2 years ago # -
This is just something I had, and although some of it may have already been stated, thought that it would not hurt to post it anyways...I realize I use the words simple and profound alot when referring to the Dzogchen Atiyoga teachings, but hey, if it aint broke don't fix it right? Another important thing to remember is that Dzogchen, Atiyoga is a path complete, in and of itself, and although it is often times grouped with the various schools and practices of Buddhist and Bon traditions, it is very different from them. Being able to distinguish what is Dzogchen, Atiyoga and what is not, is real important.
I think it is very important to stress that the simple practices of Dzogchen are open to all. To state that Dzogchen is Buddhist, or Tibetan, is going against what the very principles, simple yet profound, that Dzogchen itself is, and it is also going against what the very teachers of Dzogchen have expressed themselves. Of course, there is nothing wrong with being a Buddhist, or a Catholic, or anything else...that is not the point. The Primordial State has no religion or nationality, intellectual or cultural limitations...always, star.
Books like "The Crystal And The Way of Light", and "Dzogchen, The Self-Perfected State", written by Namkhai Norbu, are just two examples of this. Here is an exerpt from The Crystal, in Namkhai Norbu's own words:
(taken from pages 32 and 33 of "The Crystal And The Way Of Light")
The Primordial State
"The teachings of Dzogchen is in essence a teaching concerning the primordial state that is each individual's own intrinsic nature from the very beginning. To enter this state is to experience oneself as one is, as the center of the universe though not in the ordinary ego sense. The ordinary ego-centered consciousness is precisely the limited cage of dualistic vision that closes off the experience of one's own true nature, which is the space of the primordial state. To discover this primordial state is to understand the teaching of Dzogchen, and the function of the transmission of the teaching of Dzogchen is to communicate this state from one who has realized, or become established in it, to those who remain caught up in the dualistic condition. Even the name Dzogchen, which means 'Great Perfection', refers to the self-perfectedness of this state, fundamentally pure from the beginning, with nothing to reject or accept.To understand and enter the primordial state one does not need intellectual, cultural, or historical knowledge. It is beyond intellect by its very nature. Yet when people encounter a teaching they have not heard of before, one of the first things they may want to know is where this teaching arose, where it came from, and who taught it, and so on. This is understandable, but Dzogchen itself cannot be said to belong to the culture of any country. There is a tantra of Dzogchen, the Dra Thalgyur Tsawai Gyud, for example, that says that the Dzogchen teaching can be found in thirteen solar systems other than our own, so we can't even truly say that the Dzogchen teaching belongs to this planet Earth, much less to any particular national culture. Although it is true that the tradition of Dzogchen that we are about to consider has been transmitted through the culture of Tibet that has harbored it ever since the beginning of recorded history in Tibet, we nevertheless cannot finally say that Dzogchen is Tibetan, because the primordial state itself has no nationality and is omnipresent."
Posted 2 years ago # -
abby posted:
"great discussion... :o)there are so many ways to build a house... yet when the house is completed it is still a house... and although your neighbours house may be made of wood and yours is of brick they are essentially the same and are both used for dwelling... the only difference is in appearances...
for the record i like Dzogchen... from what i have read i am certain that it offers a view that allows one to see beyond the colour of ones walls..."
abby, i wanted to address this post as it relates to Dzogchen teachings.
yes, there are many ways to build a house...which here i take to represent our our various cages that our own conditioning has manifested. seen in this light, Dzogchen does not just give you a view beyond the color of one's walls, (or the bars of ones cage)...Dzogchen swings the door open to freedom from the various houses and their colored walls or cages with their bars, that mind has constructed. of course, we must walk through the door, or fly out of the cage to experience the freedom that has always, ever, been ours for the taking.
once out of the cage, or house, Dzogchen practices teaches one how to live or fly in the wide open space of freedom...first though, you must get rid of the house, the walls, the cage, the bars...and this is where the practice comes into our daily lives.
thanx for this comment abby...very inspiring.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Dear Knowy,
I looked through all your posts, and did not want you to think that I was ignoring you. I will try to address them all in this post, if I have not addressed them elsewhere on this thread.
Yes, it is understood that there is no you in the egoic sense, and it is also pretty much understood that there is only Awareness, reflected in it's various forms. The obvious thing about us is: there is a body, there is a voice (energy), and there is a mind.
When one experiences what one truly is, and is able to recognize their own true nature...then what?
Life is not the sky...and as far as I know, once we recognize our own true nature, we do not automatically fly away into the sky, at least that has not been my experience. (although i have to admit i wanted it to be!)lol
Also, life is not a dance. Life is life, for some it is more comfortable than for others, physically speaking and mentally/emotionally speaking. Sometimes we appear to dance right through it, and at other times we seem to crawl. For most of us, I would be willing to bet it is a bit of both.
Dzogchen teachings inable one to learn how to recognize and relax into their primordial state, and carry that into every aspect of their individual life. The practices within the Dzogchen teachings, enable one to learn how to do just that.
Dzogchen Atiyoga begins with introduction to one's Primordial State, or true condition. Then there are techniques that are used to help with remaining there, without doubts as to what your true condition is. True that there is nothing to find that you have not already experienced, if you have tasted Rigpa, but there is a deepening of that clarity of wisdom awareness, a stabelizing in it, and there are fruits of the practice.
This is what Dzogchen Atiyoga teachings do...they instruct you how to live your life in an awakened state, free from the conditioning of mind, body, and voice.
Rigpa, or the awakened state, never increases or decreases...so, you are correct. But our awareness of that state deepens with practice of contemplation.
Dzogchen Atiyoga is not just another path to the top of the mountain. It is a pathless path that begins at the top of the mountain...and although life and conditioning will most certainly knock one down to the base again, there are practices such as trechod and togel, that enable you to continue cutting through or jumping over illusion, making it easier to scale the mountain that is your life...and rest in your true nature along the way.
Hope that addresses all of your posts, thanx for the insight...always, star.
Posted 2 years ago # -
~star,
I wanted to look at it in more depth but still haven't come around to do it. From glancing over the posts, it seems to me that there is a similarity to karma yoga when we come to the practical everyday application.
Karma yoga, the yoga of action. The practice is to ascribe everything that happens and everything one does to God (substitute your own word for it if this is helpful to you).
It means that everything that is happening to one is taken as coming from God, and therefore "good" in some way, and everything one does is dedicated to God. By doing that there is a constant awareness and honoring of God and his presence. It is an everyday practice which requires nothing extra, no special time or effort, just include something which is always there but usually not taken into account.
Your comments?
Posted 2 years ago # -
Hey Shin, thanx for your interest and input.
Have to admit, I had to google Karma Yoga. It appears that it is a secondary practice that is connected to Dzogchen, but it is not Dzogchen, Atiyoga. If you can recognize your true nature, or Rigpa, and remain in that state, then it is realized through your own spontaneous wisdom that you are that very Awareness and that very Awareness is experienced as such. Although it might be a very helpful practice to many, and I am not suggesting that it is not, depending on one's clarity of this, but in my case, it defeats the purpose of recognizing what you really are, in respect to Awareness, or the Primordial State, to then dedicate your actions or whatever to an outside deity.
Now when I am not able to remain in Rigpa, and there have been times when this happens, and I am pretty sure that it will continue to do so while I am still stabelizing, but during those times, even though I know intellectually that all is Awareness, I feel as though I have lost my ground, my base, so-to-speak, knocked out of Rigpa by my own obstructions, and I might pray to God, the Lord Buddha, Christ, and Shiva all at the same time...LOL
I am hoping that is understood in a respectfully clear way.Having said that, I do think that everything that is happening is the reflection of Awareness, and is for the good of all. And I am not knocking secondary practices, obviously when I am not able to maintain in Rigpa, I use the practice of remaining aware of my thoughts and actions, always mindful of the consequences. I also use some practices with my breathing when my energy is off balance. I hope this explains any questions, although, like I said, I am a beginner, and am only familiar with the secondary practices that I use.
Posted 2 years ago # -
If one did not talk, there would be no use of a forum.
Spiritual growth at everyone's pleasure
Posted 2 years ago # -
From the very beginning
all the infinite number of beings that exist
have as their essential inherent condition
the perfectly pure state of an enlightened being;
knowing this to be true also of me,
I commit myself to supreme realization.
(Longchenpa)Posted 2 years ago # -
Knowledge of Dzogchen is like
being on the highest mountain peak;
no level of mountain remains mysterious or hidden,
and whoever finds themselves on this highest peak
cannot be conditioned by anyone or anything.(--from a tantra of the Dzogchen Upadesha)
Posted 2 years ago # -
Hi AsI!
your presence and voice is noted and appreciated.
what is already fullgrown, cannot grow; must just be recognized as such.
Posted 2 years ago # -
If thoughts arise, remain present in that state;
if no thoughts arise, remain present in that state;
there is no difference in the presence in either state.
(--Garab Dorje)Posted 2 years ago # -
Star-
I will check out the books you've recommended. I'm glad you made a couple of suggestions because I wouldn't have known where to start as far as reading goes, so thanks.
You said..
"Rigpa is recognized when one relaxes into their own true nature...it is as simple as that...and yet experiencing is very profound. "
I've played the game with myself with the 'no need to do anything, I'm already that' kind of thinking, but at the same time,on some level, it felt false. Objectivising myself does continue, does continue to appear, and it is a very profound experience, much gratitude is felt each time it's recognized for what it is. But then I have to laugh at the circular-ness to it all, like Self is playing with Self. :-)
Anyway-
When the student is ready apparently the books appear! :-)
Posted 2 years ago # -
lol with Jamie...yeah, awareness awakening itself...
Dzogchen, The Self-Perfected Way would be the ideal one to start with, imho, and then The Crystal and the Way of Light would be a good follow up...then, I would recommend The Supreme Source; it is outstanding. They are all by Norbu, and he has a a very clear way of explaining things.
happy reading! it will be fun to compare notes...
always, star.
Posted 2 years ago # -
When one is able to taste their own true nature...then what?
In my experience, conditioning and nonconditiong still continue to affect our experiencing our own natural state. It is said that total realization can take but a moment, but that moment may take a long time. (parahrasing from Heart Drops Of Dharmakaya; commentary by Lopon Tenzin Namdak)
This is where the practice of Tregchod (variation of spellings include: trechod, trekcho, and trekchod), a Dzogchen, Atiyoga practice, becomes necessary, and very helpful. Paraphrasing Norbu in The Crystal, once contemplation or Rigpa is reached, regardless of the method by which one arrives, one must continue in it.
Directly quoting from pg. 130, Norbu continues: "...and working to bring this continuation into every action and situation is called Tregchod, which literally means '(spontaneous) cutting of tension', in the sense that as soon as the primordial state manifests and dualism is thus overcome, one instantly falls into a state of total relaxation, like a bundle of sticks, that, having been tightly bound together, falls loosely into a totally relaxed pattern as soon as the string binding has been cut."
"The fundamental point of the practice of Dzogchen, called tregchod or "release of tension," is to relax in the state of contemplation, while the way to remain in this state is called chogshag, "leaving as it is." (The Supreme Source, pg. 84)
In my experience, when the natural state is realized, and one is resting in contemplation through practicing remaining in that state, should conditioning such as thoughts or anger, happiness, sadness, desire, etc. manifest, tregchod is used to cut through them...much like a knife cutting through illusion, and then chogshag is used, and one remains in the natural condition and leaves it as it is.
whatever arises is self-perfected into the natural state.
Dzogchen is not just another cage, although by misunderstanding it one can make a cage of it. It is a way for those who have tasted their own true nature or natural condition, to remain there and stabelize.
Anger, or any other distraction becomes an opportunity for the practitioner to compare that state to the natural state, and remove all doubts as to what their true condition is. This is why the practitioners very life path is the very path of their own realization.
more latter...always, star.
Posted 2 years ago # -
"yes, there are many ways to build a house...which here i take to represent our our various cages that our own conditioning has manifested. seen in this light, Dzogchen does not just give you a view beyond the color of one's walls, (or the bars of ones cage)...Dzogchen swings the door open to freedom from the various houses and their colored walls or cages with their bars, that mind has constructed. of course, we must walk through the door, or fly out of the cage to experience the freedom that has always, ever, been ours for the taking.
once out of the cage, or house, Dzogchen practices teaches one how to live or fly in the wide open space of freedom...first though, you must get rid of the house, the walls, the cage, the bars...and this is where the practice comes into our daily lives."
star,,, i do not doubt at all what you say and that Dzogchen has you flying in awareness...
yet from this view it is just another house... so many people who are indoctrinated the world over will proclaim that they have the answer and hold the truth... i also have no doubt that many of these people are flying in awareness through their respective teachnings... what exactly is the awareness that they are flying within though...? when is it not conditioned by the teachings themself...?
in all sincerity how can you be certain that you are not doing another conditioned dance...? although i do not question that Dzogchen will have you flying i do question wether or not it is just another conditioned state...
in peace... :o)
Posted 2 years ago # -
Dzoghen does not have 'me flying in awareness'...you misunderstand.
If it is understood as just another house from your view, then it is your view that is obstructed.
again, one does not fly within awareness...and there is no way for me to describe the experience of one's true nature...you must experience it for yourself...by getting out of your own way...beyond all conditioning.
when is it not conditioned by the teachings? when the message of the teachings are understood, and one's true nature is realized.
how can i be certain that i am not doing another conditioned dance? by experiencing that which is beyond conditioning, stabelizing in it where all doubt is removed as to what the natural state is...beyond all accepting and rejecting.
again, Dzogchen does not have me flying, and it is excellent that you are questioning!
thank you for your input and interest; as always, your awareness inspires my own...always, star.
Posted 2 years ago # -
there are three levels of tregchod, depending upon one's clarity...which always depends on one's own obstructions.
the first is where the practioner, while resting in their own true nature is suddenly distracted by illusion, and the practioner then notices the destraction, by the ability of analytical discernment/mind, and reaches the conclusion that it is illusion, and then once again is able to rest in the natural condition.
the second level is where the practioner is able to recognize all of this without the activity of mental discernment or mental noise, or feedback, meaning it is automatically understood as such, and once again is able to rest in the natural condition.
the third level is where this all takes place without any noticing...it self-liberates without any analytical observation or defining, or noticing of understanding.
forgive me here if this is not as clear as it could be; it is as clear as i can possibly make it at this time...from my own spontaneous wisdom...hopefully it makes sense.
Posted 2 years ago # -
"Dzoghen does not have 'me flying in awareness'...you misunderstand.'
was just a way of saying it works for you... sorry for any misunderstanding...
"If it is understood as just another house from your view, then it is your view that is obstructed."
i like that...
"again, one does not fly within awareness...and there is no way for me to describe the experience of one's true nature...you must experience it for yourself...by getting out of your own way...beyond all conditioning."
i agree...
"when is it not conditioned by the teachings? when the message of the teachings are understood, and one's true nature is realized."
how is understanding determined? is there a difference between true nature and false nature? if so what is it?
"how can i be certain that i am not doing another conditioned dance? by experiencing that which is beyond conditioning, stabelizing in it where all doubt is removed as to what the natural state is...beyond all accepting and rejecting."
again i agree...
Posted 2 years ago #
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