Collection of Thoughts

Collection of Thoughts » Collection of thoughts

1. Star
   Member
   

   

   THESE ARE TAKEN FROM SEVERAL OF CHIP'S POSTS ON ANOTHER THREAD...AND HAVE LOTS OF INTERESTING CHALLENGES PRESENTED TO AWARENESS...

   CHIP POSTED:

   For me, all of this is superficial, this reality, it's like a transparancy overlaid on a
   luminouse blank, it has no depth. Non of it can exist without this awareness but this
   awareness can exist without it. Please understand, this is not the way i believe it to be,
   this is the way it IS for me. All my senses percieve it this way, and my mind responds to
   it this way, i'm aware of reacting to it this way.

   Even this dialog.

   that which we call awareness, god, truth, has no requirements. it is called god by me
   because it is omnipresent. There is no space. No inner, no outer.

   A bubble on the water has only a superficial existance as a bubble, it's still water. Like
   that.

   Unseen existance, the so called occult, is no different then this earth life in it's
   superficiality, it's simply a matter of excitement to some because it appears different
   due to it's rarity of being percieved, and workings being unfamilair.

   But when i say to you all this is superficial and transparent to me, that there is no
   inner and outer, then it IS as it IS. That makes it impossible to turn back to something
   i know has no depth of reality, to do so would mean i would have to make believe i am doing
   those things, and make believe that those things were happening on other then a
   superficial level. Why? It would be like playing tea party or hospital with dollies again.

   On another tac...one has to be very careful of anything that requires a construction for
   a purpose because it easily becomes a religion if one thinks it will LEAD to a result of
   greater depth.

   Avoiding the superficiality is to give it greater meaning then it has and to embrace it is
   to do the same.

   Spacelessness, is just that, omnipresence that has no boundries, yes, am 'stuck' with it.

   All of this is bubbles on the water, and yes, i am a bubble too, just more aware that ALL,
   ALLLLL the bubbles are water. Nothing more, nothing less, nothing other, spacelessness.

   Am not attached to having the last word so have a go at it..... : )

   Posted 5 months ago #

2. Star
   Member
   

   

   Chip, I am hoping that you don't mind me doing this, as having had time to reflect on this
   culmination of your posts in the Mother's Day thread, Awareness on these can finally be
   expressed...lol...you present some challenges, at least to my thinking, and so, hopefully,
   they will challenge your thinking, and we can continue with our abstract views of Awareness,
   and WHAT IS, or WHAT IS NOT...in a friendly back and forth, if you are so (hopefully)
   persuaded to be inclined to do...lol...all for the further understanding of Awareness...there
   is so much in these posts that my awareness has been challenged to deal with, that this entire
   first post is on the first half of your first paragraph alone...lol...not sure how this will work itself out, but, hey
   I am challenged to experiment...lol

   first off, I want to address this 'idea' of superficial, transparency, luminous, and blank.

   which can be reduced to, and described as, 'a deeper awaring of enlightened emptiness',
   which then can be reduced to the all familiar Dzogchen Base(mind/awareness)...

   would it not be fair, and correct to say however, that in rejecting the 'idea' of the
   superficial, and only accepting the 'idea' of this Awareness that you suggest is all there
   is and can and does infact exist, without the other, you are in fact seperating, and
   rejecting the 'idea' that Base Awareness has a Path(voice/energy), and Fruit (body/form)?

   I disagree with your assertion that Base Awareness can infact exist without a body and a
   voice...you cannot correctily seperate these three 'ideas', and just say that only the
   mind aspect of Awareness exists...you are a body, mind, and voice, and one of those aspects
   cannot exist without all of those aspects...to be aware of...

   the nature of Awareness is to reflect as energy(voice or path), and that nature to reflect
   in forms(body or fruit), seen or unseen, in which energy presents itself as, are in fact
   that Base, which has to include Path and Fruit...

   I will try and further make my point, which is my challenge, of my awareness, which is the
   only thing I know to be truth in this moment...lol...and has nothing to do with you, or your
   apparent position on this subject, nor does it have anything to do with my trying to persuade
   you or to change your mind, all that, you and I agree is moot.

   However; I have a body, mind, and voice...right here, right now...my body not only needs food,
   sleep, shelter, exericise, water, etc. to function in a healthy way, my voice or energies,
   need to be balanced for my body to be healthy, and my mind also has needs that need to be
   met to be healthy...emotional balance, intellectual challenge, etc...to totally reject that
   this is my reality, is to reject the total reality, and not to experience this Awareness in
   my own body, mind, and voice...without any limits, in the total freedom that is meant to
   experience. While i think it important to be aware of the deeper realities, I cannot with
   sucess seperate them from what you refer to as 'superficial' realities. By doing this, I
   would be infact rejecting reality itself...which whether or not our minds reject this idea
   of a body and voice...lol...the body and voice is still here...pinch yourself and say ouch!

   Posted 5 months ago #

3. Star
   Member
   

   

   "Please understand, this is not the way i believe it to be,
   this is the way it IS for me. All my senses percieve it this way, and my mind responds to
   it this way, i'm aware of reacting to it this way."

   this is the second half of your first paragraph chip, and while i can understand and relate to what you are trying to convey, by simply saying that this is not the way you believe it to be, suggests, and makes the opposite relevant, does it not?

   your senses, by your own declaration are illusional right? so why would you rely on them to determine this? also, your mind responding, if this infact is the case, if all else does not exist, what is it responding and reacting too?

   if this IS the way it IS as you claim, who is it that is claiming this...still?

   and is not your claiming this, infact yet another 'idea'?

   hope you'll play with me, all in good spirits...

   Posted 5 months ago #

4. Star
   Member
   

   

   the dialogue cannot be catagorized as superficial, if the dialogue, in and of itself helps awareness reach a 'whole' understanding of awareness, or of what is...or what is not...

   i love what you say here...
   "Avoiding the superficiality is to give it greater meaning then it has and to embrace it is to do the same."

   but are you not infact doing this by qualifying that which is superficial seperate from that which you claim is not?

   i'm gona holdup here, and see if you want to play, or if this thread will become one of masterbation...lol...which is ok too...lol

   Posted 5 months ago #

5. Star
   Member
   

   

   ok, moving right along...

   where you state this...

   "that which we call awareness, god, truth, has no requirements. it is called god by me
   because it is omnipresent. There is no space. No inner, no outer."

   how can god, truth, or awareness be omnipresent, which means to exist similtaneously, everywhere at the same time, and yet, have no space, no inner or outer, no 'everywhere' in which to exist?

   if infact, awareness reflects, and whether it reflects as a flower, a seed, a human, etc., then to say that it has no requirements, is to say that a flower needs no sunshine, no rain, same for the seed, or that a human has no needs, which we all know that this human existence requires needs being met to sustain itself. to say that a flower, a seed, or a human being is not awareness, then what proof of awareness is there?

   now the real arguement might just be, does even awareness exist? however; we cannot correctly state that what is within our vision, is not awareness, and everything within our vision has requirements, so by that deduction alone, awareness does have requirements.

   i like what you say here...

   "Spacelessness, is just that, omnipresence that has no boundries, yes, am 'stuck' with it."

   but then you give it boundaries and limit it, by stating it is no space, no inner, no outer...even stating those things about it, limit it. the truth may be that awareness appears to be limited, by this body, voice, and mind, regardless of our mental experience of it, but that mental experience, can actually limit our life experiencing...which we may think that we are limited in human form, but that is apparently exactly what awareness reflects...and is not awareness in control? i find it possible to be stuck in the 'idea' of spacelessness...but since the very idea of spacelessness, has no space to be omnipresent in, it is illogical, and it also conveniently denies the very fact that a body, mind, and voice exists in this here and now...just as with awareness, no matter what our mental or spiritual experience of it is, there is also a physical and emotional experience of awareness as well.

   let's talk about the bubble...you state...

   "A bubble on the water has only a superficial existance as a bubble, it's still water. Like that."

   a bubble on the water is no more, or no less real than the water, so again we have the question, or parallel, of the fact that Awareness is just as real, or not, as the body, mind, and voice that it is reflecting, or experiencing through.

   more here on the bubbles...
   "All of this is bubbles on the water, and yes, i am a bubble too, just more aware that ALL, ALLLLL the bubbles are water. Nothing more, nothing less, nothing other, spacelessness."

   i get this analogy, and do agree, but awareness would include water, the bubbles, and everything...everything else, that the mind catagorizes as 'other', as well as all the nothings...which includes anything transparent, superficial, etc., as well as those things that appear to be solid...and even conditioning itself...all things religious, scientific, philosophical, political, social, etc...the fact is, and you cannot deny this...you are not a bubble, you are a body, voice, and mind, which is all awareness, how could it be anything 'other'?

   agaun, we cannot with any accuracy, claim that all of this exists, or that it does not exist...but all of it...ALL OF IT...is the reality of now. dismissing this life as illusion is not an accurate assertion imo...and i have found it to be limiting, and unhealthy. it is much more freeing to understand awareness with the nonlimits of existence and nonexistence, not accepting or rejecting any conceptual beliefs, but welcoming, and yes embracing without attachment, each and every instant of life experiencing...which brings me to the teaparty...lol

   here is that paragraph...

   "But when i say to you all this is superficial and transparent to me, that there is no
   inner and outer, then it IS as it IS. That makes it impossible to turn back to something i know has no depth of reality, to do so would mean i would have to make believe i am doing those things, and make believe that those things were happening on other then a superficial level. Why? It would be like playing tea party or hospital with dollies again."

   does this mean that you can walk through walls? do you no longer have a physical existence? is there no longer any visual outer existence? can awareness manipulate the superficial and transparent? if awareness is still limited here, then awareness still has a mind that is limiting...and is still experiencing itself as a body, mind, and voice...better to experience that to the fullest potential...imo...

   saying that this reality has no depth of reality only makes that true in 'your' mind, and is conceptual in and of itself...and i would suggest that it is dangerous and unhealthy, emotionally and mentally, and physically as well.

   as far as make believing, are you not saying that this is what we have always been doing anyways? even when we did not realize it?

   so once that understanding is realized, should not the teaparty be experienced at an entirely new level of freedom, understanding what the teaparty really is, and enjoying the tea, and playing with the dolls?

   also, your seperating the superficial from that which is not superficial is seperating one reality from another...saying that this reality is superficial, and yet this other reality of awareness is not, is seperating one from the other...not a healthy whole, and this seperation can only be made with the mind...there is no seperation.

   the answer to your 'why?'...dancing freely in emptiness; feeling joy, feeling happiness, feeling sadness, living, breathing, every single moment aware...compassion, anger, laughing, crying...each moment as it presents itself...totally awake...totally aware...free from conceptual thinking...accepting and rejecting nothing and everything...awesomeness...peace, chaos, kissing, fucking, coming, walking, running, smiling, not to mention all the wonderful things to learn, to see, to experience...what a gift of grace...awareness in all it's wonderous reflections...

   this is not a judgment on you, just an observation and a response of awareness to the ideas you posted. your observations are always appreciated, and i think you know my love and respect for you...but as a friend, it sounds like you are closing yourself off into this so-called spacelessness...but i could be mistaken...just my perception upon reflecting on your posts.

   "On another tac...one has to be very careful of anything that requires a construction for a purpose because it easily becomes a religion if one thinks it will LEAD to a result of greater depth."

   ok, here you are suggesting that awareness be careful...but if your entire theory, is that awareness has no requirements, why would it need to be careful? and if all this is superficial anyways, why would there be a problem with doing anything that might make it a better illusion?

   all this is in regards to my own awareness...nothing more, nothing less, and yet, i do believe that awareness has great potential...i see it everyday...i experience it...i am living it...dancing freely in my own emptiness...i awaken to meet the sun...i kiss the day with joy...and thank awareness for the grace of this existence...and i long for the ones that are suffering, to awaken the light within them...

   much love to you chip...always, star.

   Posted 5 months ago #

6. chip
   Member
   

   

   star...

   an explanation: am saying this with gentleness because you can't hear my voice or see my expression, i am not going to re-hash this because it doesn't intrest me.

   Few people have experienced pure awareness. That is not to say they are not awake, it is to say they did not live with that as the predominant factor for any length of time.
   It looked thru these eyes while the chip thing went on thinking and doing life. IT was PREDOMINANT, it's attention noted the chip thing, and watched it think and emote and move, and it meant no more then the sun or the trees or anything else the "attention" noted but did not name or respond to. It is brillient in it's "attention" and all it attends to is brillent. This is luminosity This is emptiness.

   It profoundly and fundementaly affects the mind for there was that which showed the emptiness of action and reaction, it clearly showed the illusion which appears as a thinking feeling acting entity illusionaly predominant to brillient awareness, which is commonly accepted as reality.

   In the above paragraph the key words are profoundly and fundementaly affects the mind.

   Pure awareness has no function. Mind, that processor of sensation, appears to be aware in and of by itself, it's not, it only a converter for the senses, made possible by awareness.

   It's said...that anyone awakened may be anything they want, including nothing special. Because there is the recognition there is only an illusional seperate existance. So one can be a murderer, or a saint, or again, nothing special. Tho why anyone would have the motivation, due to the awakened perception of illusional existance, to commit murder or be a saint escapes me.

   There is no such thing as a better illusion. That would involve the duality of worse. Illusion is just what it says, illusion, that which is not real, such as having a seperate inherent existance from pure awareness. A better unreal is still unreal and as it's unreal it really has no better.

   But it is said the awakened may be anything they wish...so be the maker of better illusion if you wish, play the game, if you can manuever anyone into a position for awakening go for it. However, from observation there are two factors which were pronounced in anyone i know of which have awakened, and that is....1= a loyalty to an unknown truth, and 2= the willingness to committ spiritual suicide for it. Look for those two things in any awakening candidate.

   Last 2 thoughts....Please don't preach to the choir, it bores them. Truth Realisation cannot be anymore realised. It is complete in less than an instant. i suspect there may be this urge to teach, if there is, look for a venue for it and if you can't find one then make one. Just be cautiouse about being entraped into thinking there is a real you doing a real thing.

   Concepts....Language is conceptual. It is not possible to speak from pure awareness even tho it may be predominant, not possible because it is conceptualess, not only in definition but in it's awareness. it has no language as such.

   This may not be what you want, but it is what's here this morning, and if there is synchronicity then perhaps it's what you really asked for.

   i've said enough on the subject, ending with a thought hug to you.

   Posted 5 months ago #

7. chip
   Member
   

   

   HA! just noticed an ad at the top of the page from the temple of Kriya yoga. My old home place for many years.

   Posted 5 months ago #

8. Star
   Member
   

   

   thank you for the response chip...good stuff in that post...

   i would say that 'pure' awareness is experienced by everything and all, as all and everything is pure awareness...maybe just not recognized as such due to the distractions of conditioning and everyday life, which is ironically also awareness, and since there is no pure or impure, there is really no seperation except in our 'minds'.

   i think the more important issue here, if there is one...lol...is that once one has had such an experience, how does one then take that state into everyday living, and allow that awakened state to predominantly live through this body, voice, and mind, because illusion or not, this is the predominant reality that most live with, including those that have had this so-called 'awakened' experience.

   we are here...body, mind, and voice...and that seems to be the way that awareness works, therefore, i can no longer seperate 'this' as an illusion, and 'that' as not...all of it, even this so-called 'illusion' is awareness reflecting, and as awareness reflecting as human-ness, i have a responsibility to take advantage of the potentiality that presents itself in every instant of life experiencing...

   seperating 'pure awareness' from what appears before me, is indulging in 'other'. while there was a time when it was advantageous for me to seperate this, it is no longer possible for me to do so...i have seen the mountain; the mountain disappeared; and now i see the mountain again, as it is, and i cannot seperate the mountain from the awareness that recognizes it for what it is...in saying this...i want to make sure that i make myself clear...a mountain is a mountain...if i as a human being want to get to the top, or anywhere else, i have to use my feet, legs, arms, and wit...and climb it...that is the reality.

   i could close my ears and eyes and mind to the world going on around me, and have, and just sleep-walk awake through this life...telling myself that it's all illusion while i fix myself another plate of food...i cannot do that now...i disagree with your evaluation that there is no purpose...and that is ok...it is ok for you to hold your position, for that is where you are on your path; i am coming from an entirely different perception along my path...and although i do agree that there is no individual 'me', there still seems to be individual awareness that is waking up to every instant as it presents itself, and it would be remiss for me to say that i can know how to respond in each renewed instant of awaring potential...

   i have found, that saying that all is illusion, is just another escape; a copout...and yet another conditioned belief that allows us to do nothing...which i believe that even in doing nothing, that is something...it is another way to sit high upon a throne...peering out over the mass of the unawakened...convincing our still ego-self, there is nothing to do, and no one to do it for...

   if the universe presents it...puts it in our path...there is a reason...and i think it does a dis-service to awareness to do and say otherwise...

   btw, your suspicions are incorrect...i do not desire to be a teacher, or anything else...only to be what i am, and allow awareness to awaken to it's fullest potential...every instant...experiencing life on life's terms...

   as far as what 'i' wanted from you...awareness wanted clarification...

   how can you continue to seperate what is, into awareness and illusion? you have always said that there is no 'other', and continue to do so, and yet you continue to say the opposite everytime you seperate this from that...

   as far as having a spiritual death...seems like that is dramatizing the fact that religious conditioned beliefs have to collapse...that it all...if we continue to characterize it as this 'spiritual death', which implies grief and loss, etc...it just makes it some ceremonial thing that one starts to believe they must achieve before they can awaken...which is not true.

   telling me to not preach to the choir because it bores them...hmmmmmmmmm...the chip i use to know told me not to pay any attention to anyone telling me what i should or should not do...what did you do with that chip?

   as far as awareness having a language...yes it does...it can be clear and concise on dispelling the conceptual...the only place it cannot explain itself articulately...is in explaining itself...that is due to the fact that it is everything...and nothing...infinite in wisdom and equanimity...and always new in every instant of it's own truth...

   thank you for the back and forth...and i am sending back a hug...much love to you dear friend...i know you don't post very often, so i feel fortunate that you said as much as you did...i love gleaming the truths from your posts, and also, you present a challenge to my awareness with your bold claims and contradictions...it's all good...always, star.

   Posted 5 months ago #

RSS feed for this topic

Reply

You must log in to post.