Spiritual Forum - deja vu (already seen)

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deja vu (already seen)

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Started 1 year ago by gatesofgrace
Latest reply from Starss

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gatesofgrace
Member

It has been seen before!

The "roaring twenties" was an era when our country prospered tremendously. The nation's total realized income rose from $74.3 billion in 1923 to $89 billion in 1929. However, the rewards of the "Coolidge Prosperity" of the 1920's were not shared evenly among all Americans. According to a study done by the Brookings Institute, in 1929 the top 0.1% of Americans had a combined income equal to the bottom 42%. That same top 0.1% of Americans in 1929 controlled 34% of all savings, while 80% of Americans had no savings at all. Automotive industry mogul Henry Ford provides a striking example of the unequal distribution of wealth between the rich and the middle-class. Henry Ford reported a personal income of $14 million in the same year that the average personal income was $750. By present day standards, where the average yearly income in the U.S. is around $18,500, Mr. Ford would be earning over $345 million a year! This maldistribution of income between the rich and the middle class grew throughout the 1920's. While the disposable income per capita rose 9% from 1920 to 1929, those with income within the top 1% enjoyed a stupendous 75% increase in per capita disposable income.

Posted 1 year ago #
gatesofgrace
Member

The federal government also contributed to the growing gap between the rich and middle-class. Calvin Coolidge's administration (and the conservative-controlled government) favored business, and as a result the wealthy who invested in these businesses. An example of legislation to this purpose is the Revenue Act of 1926, signed by President Coolidge on February 26, 1926, which reduced federal income and inheritance taxes dramatically. Andrew Mellon, Coolidge's Secretary of the Treasury, was the main force behind these and other tax cuts throughout the 1920's. In effect, he was able to lower federal taxes such that a man with a million-dollar annual income had his federal taxes reduced from $600,000 to $200,000. Even the Supreme Court played a role in expanding the gap between the socioeconomic classes. In the 1923 case Adkins v. Children's Hospital, the Supreme Court ruled minimum-wage legislation unconstitutional.

The large and growing disparity of wealth between the well-to-do and the middle-income citizens made the U.S. economy unstable. For an economy to function properly, total demand must equal total supply. In an economy with such disparate distribution of income it is not assured that demand will always equal supply. Essentially what happened in the 1920's was that there was an oversupply of goods. It was not that the surplus products of industrialized society were not wanted, but rather that those whose needs were not satiated could not afford more, whereas the wealthy were satiated by spending only a small portion of their income. A 1932 article in Current History articulates the problems of this maldistribution of wealth:

We still pray to be given each day our daily bread. Yet there is too much bread, too much wheat and corn, meat and oil and almost every other commodity required by man for his subsistence and material happiness. We are not able to purchase the abundance that modern methods of agriculture, mining and manufacturing make available in such bountiful quantities.

Three quarters of the U.S. population would spend essentially all of their yearly incomes to purchase consumer goods such as food, clothes, radios, and cars. These were the poor and middle class: families with incomes around, or usually less than, $2,500 a year. The bottom three quarters of the population had an aggregate income of less than 45% of the combined national income; the top 25% of the population took in more than 55% of the national income. While the wealthy too purchased consumer goods, a family earning $100,000 could not be expected to eat 40 times more than a family that only earned $2,500 a year, or buy 40 cars, 40 radios, or 40 houses.

Through such a period of imbalance, the U.S. came to rely upon two things in order for the economy to remain on an even keel: credit sales, and luxury spending and investment from the rich.

Well, well, well!

How many more times will man be put threw this crap??

Posted 1 year ago #
abstractprophet
Member

Simply put gates, as it began it will end.

This way of living can not sustain itself and is designed to eventually cave in on itself.

Posted 1 year ago #
Starss
Member

Oddly enough when a small group of people ignore the mass of humanity, there are serious repercussions such as overthrow of governments, wars, and lots of other
interesting responses. Enough people and assassinations of politicians would be a
daily occurance. Those having money to spend would be the first targets.

Posted 1 year ago #
Star
Member

"How many more times will man be put threw this crap??"

until enough of humanity stands up and says...ENOUGH!

until there are new ways of thinking that will solve problems, instead of creating more...until the focus is on a compassionate humanity...a compassionate humanity will be out of reach...

maybe what it will take is a complete shutdown of our old systems and ways of thinking...until it begins to affect people in their own lives, people will stay preoccupied and just go shopping somewhere, buying more stuff that they don't need, boosting an economy that is doomed to fail, b/c it is not founded on compassion*

Posted 1 year ago #
shin
Member

Welcome, envy and resentment have made an entrance.

Posted 1 year ago #
Star
Member

would you care to clarify your statement shin?

Posted 1 year ago #
gatesofgrace
Member

star,

Yes! Perhaps only then.

Posted 1 year ago #
shin
Member

star

part of the answer may be found in the video the 'Inspired' therad refers to.
She refers to the slum children in Brazil who told her "If I would be rich I would blah, blah, blah" and then goes on to say "if those children who have nothing are prepared to share, why not us who are rich?"
Easy, they can talk about sharing because they have nothing to share. The game changes the very moment they have something to share, and I predict that the majority of those slum children would _not_ share.

We always debate from our own position. If we are rich we argue from a rich man's position, if we are poor from a poor man's one. If the poor man becomes rich he will forget about the poor. There are reasons for this.
-there is a likelyhood that became rich because he adopted a rich man's attitude. It is unlikely that one becomes rich by having a poor man's attitude.
-in order to stay rich he will have to move amongst the rich.
-if he focuses too much on the poor they will take everything from him and although having been rich at one time, will end up poor.

The world and its demands never say enough, the world will never say no to what you give. Instead it will say "Can I have more?"

Posted 1 year ago #
YetAnotherSeeker
Member

(edited for typos)
In 1776, Adam Smith’s Wealth of Nations was published and the U.S. Declaration of Independence was signed. Coincidence? There was a widespread economic depression that had begun in the previous decades, causing England to create a series of efforts to raise revenue. Among these were the Stamp Act, the Townshend Acts, and the Tea Act; the colonists reacted with the Boston Tea Party and the Declaration of Independence.

Fast-forward 80 (four-score) years:

At that time Abraham Lincoln was a lawyer in private practice, working for the railroads. On August 12, 1857, he was paid $4800 in a check, which he deposited and converted to cash. A couple months later, both the railroad and the bank were forced to suspend payment on all outstanding checks. This was the Great Panic of October 1857. Soon to follow was the Civil War, from which emerged a transformed and more powerful federal government, changing forever the US government’s role in managing the country.

Seventy-five years later the Great Depression bottomed out, and again: war and upheaval, on a greater scale than ever before, accompanied by dramatic transformations in the role and nature of our federal government.

Today we’re approaching that same interval, we are experiencing another worldwide economic crisis. People are nervous, with good reason. My theory is that it takes about eighty years, or four generations, for the population to forget what caused the last crisis.

I don't know how this cycle effects economies of other countries, except that in this cycle, for better or worse, the American economy, with the multi-national corporations so prominent, is such a strong influence on the economies of other nations, and of the world.

(economics in a spiritual forum? LOL)

Posted 1 year ago #
gatesofgrace
Member

Yas,

If spiritual discussion is sought after... Within three generations the people of Israel who had been directed and guided by a Prophet... lost their way. It was indeed the fourth generation that got into trouble so.

Is this not spiritual insight?

Posted 1 year ago #
Star
Member

shin said..."The world and its demands never say enough, the world will never say no to what you give. Instead it will say "Can I have more?""

is this from your position?

i find it very generalized, and although i agree with some of what you say, is there not a way to then 'teach' those that tend to say, 'can i have more?', responsibility?

it is like teaching a child...and i do realize that it is frustrating...we have a world full of grown ups that are spoiled rotten brats...but there are also those that have not had the benefits of even a decent meal...do we continue to punish them for having been born to a less than desirable situation in life? how would we feel in that same situation? we are blessed beyond imagination...and it is beyond imagination how we can continue to ignore that, and others that have not been thus so blessed...

everyone is a child of this earth and deserves the basic necessities...i am not suggesting that we build them mansions...but i am suggesting that we help them build their villages so that they can survive and develope naturally...

btw...shin, i agree with you completely, concerning the 'taking a plane' basically...to talk against...'taking a plane'...we have to many environmentalist talking out both sides of their mouth...i loved your idea of the video...way cool...*

...if all we can do is come up with excuses for how we cannot make things better, whether they be pointing to historical facts or religious ideals, i say shut the fuck up and let someone who actually has some imaginative and compassionate ideas to present be allowed a chance...at least until you can come up with something orignal and compassionate yourself...besides the usual of laying laws down, or looking the other way...

Posted 1 year ago #
shin
Member

Of course it is generalized.
Can one teach someone what responsibilty is? Yes!
Can one _make_ someone accept responsibilty? No.

What we need to teach is how to willingly accept responsibilty. There aren't many place who do this.

What my previous post or two also imply is that there is a something like "healthy selfishness". One has to protect oneself against the leeches and vampires of the world. This has little to do with the have-nots, you only need to look at how people who work in the caring professions can burn out by failing to set proper boundaries. One thing that helps in doing that is to have a clear distinction between needs and wants.
Unfulfilled needs impairs development, at worst may cause death. No such consequences are associated with wants.
Every person should be able to fulfil their needs and that means shelter, clothing, food, security, basic health care, and education. On a most basic level, these plus reasonable communication and public transport, are the responsibilty of government.
A government is an organisational structure put in place to fulfil the basic needs of the people, _all_ people, and not to mainly pander to the wants of a section of the population.
We can do our bit, but that has always limitations.

Posted 1 year ago #
Star
Member

i agree with everything you stated...except where you say, "we can do our bit, but that has always limitations." and..."we cannot make others be responsible"

you just set us up for failure...

any limit, and every limit, is also an opening...

btw, you can make someone take responsibility for their actions...i am proof of that...when my drug addiction led me to being locked up and ended me up in drug court...i was forced to take responsibility for my actions, behavior, and feelings...iow...i was forced to finally grow up...i also use this in my work with other drug addicts and alcoholics...i insist they take responsibility...i am compassionate and sensitive to all levels of recovery...b/c i have been there done that...but i do not put up with drama and their complaining...i direct them to the facts that they are responsible...many don't want to hear that...and move on to someone that tells them what they want to hear...but hey...that's life...and life will kick them in the teeth soon enough...have had many come back and tell me so...although, i already knew...lol

a better question might be, why do we have to have everything taken from us before we realize we need to change?

Posted 1 year ago #
shin
Member

star,

re your own experience, you may have taken responsibility because the alternatives were too ghatsly to contemplate.
Some people may admit the truth when a gun is against their head, others will continue to deny what they know, even if it costs their life.
Sometimes life itself is the gun.

What I meant by limitations is that when you work _entirely on your own_ there are limitations to what one can achieve. Big problems require a big response, and ultimately only governments can supply such a response. In fact, governments should have _no problem_ in delivering such a response.
What needs to be agreed upon is how far governments should go. Delivering primary health care should be a duty, providing a heart bypass operations is not. Delivering basic education should be a duty, providing for a university degree is not, etc.

In this country some people cannot find jobs because people cannot even afford to go
to a job interview! How does one get people out of such a catch22 situation?

Posted 1 year ago #
fin
Member

Shin,
thats correct,
though what do you see as the solution to the catch22 situation ? or is there one ?

Posted 1 year ago #
fin
Member

Hi Gates,
I like what Shins implies. A BIG picture re-organisation of economic structures is required to change the Big picture. Though it will not eliminate the appearance of suffering, its a start.

Our economic system could be far simpler than it is.

On the one hand there are basic provisional needs/wants (clean shelter, clean food, clean water, health, education, means of communication) even though some might want more, others less. On the other hand there are enough hands on deck and technology to meet those needs or at least potentially.

However, as it stands all that is easily stalled or impeded by the need to satisfy Credit demand/supply.

Where does the money come from ? Who pays for it ? is enough money profited ? who do i borrow from ? Can i afford it ? Will I lose money ? Before anything can happen.

Gates, also the extent of the credit markets (financial markets) is staggering and the financial markets are not really divorced from the real economy at all and influences the flow of credit which set the big institutions in motion.

No-one knows how many trillions of money in highly geared paper credit are transacted daily in forex markets, futures, cfds, all kinds of stuff. There are markets that bet on which company will go bankrupt first. Even the sub-prime mortgages (so called bad loans) became highly geared financial instruments in meltdown. All of these markets dwarf the stock markets we know of from the media, such as Dowes Jones, etc, that make the mainstream news. The big institutions that park your savings money and supply jobs and supply credit invariably depend on the flow on from these investments and highly geared financial instruments and where they and all this that keep the entire world wide economy afloat.

The credit crunch, or global credit crisis now puts all this in the spotlight and potentially the entire system can collapse like a pack of cards. Unfortunately instead of rebuilding the car we hope putting more fuel into it will get it going again with all these credit injections, rates cutes and credit relief for collapsing giants of economy.

All in all, its a train crash waiting to happen, sooner or later imo.

Anyway, its a long discussion, and have to go.

all the best ray : )

Posted 1 year ago #
shin
Member

In no particular order,

The first thing is to redefine the responsibilities of the state. Many basic services are now privatised because they are run more efficiently in private hands, or so it is claimed.
This is a nonsense argument because most of the services are brought to at least a break-even point _before_ they are sold. It is clearly possible to run such enterprises profitable even as a government. Difficult maybe, but not impossible.
Secondly one needs to accept that certain things can never generate a profit, but we have taxes to pay for these things, isn't it?

Thirdly, responsibilities need to be delegated down. Why does one need to see a doctor when one has flu, or a cut need to be sutured? Any good nurse can do that too.

Fourth, there may have to be transition measures. To stick with the catch22 situation, make transport free for jobseekers. All the technology to prevent abuse is available. We can bank via cell phones, why should we not be able to book a free ride and check that the free ride was used for its intended purpose?

Fifth, the education system needs to be adapted to deliver what is needed by commerce, so that people can do something with what they learnt.

Sixth, we have to get away from 'creating jobs for people' to 'create opportunities for livelyhoods' for people. This is localisation instead of globalisation. It also means deregulation, less paperwork, a change from income tax to consumption tax (e.g. VAT), from many collection point to a vastly reduced number. Ideally, a tax on all bank transactions. Calculations predict that 0.1% tax rate would generate the equivalent of what is generated now.
Someone once figured out that a new business in this country needs to fill out 72 application/registration forms, most duplication most of the information. A one-stop registration process should be no problem with the technology we have today.

Just off the top of my head. Imagine what I can come up with when I start to think, LOL

Posted 1 year ago #
fin
Member

Excellent stuff shin! Seriously ...

My son is pulling me to go, telling me to finish up on the computer, and i've some family business to attend to, though i really look forward to reading what you've written...

I sense its very insightful...

thanks brother : )

Posted 1 year ago #
shin
Member

And we have to accept that even with the best system there will always be people who have no vision, no will, no incentives, no motivation, to contribute and by doing this to rise above the bare minimum necessary for survival. IOW, there will always be freeloaders.

Posted 1 year ago #
fin
Member

Yes, shin,
Thats most likely to be true. Probably there will be many who still can't be satisfied no matter how much they have or own.

All these insightful ideas you have proposed i think have potential to improve matters (esp the catch22 situation) as well as efficiency if they were to be considered by authorities.

Shin, i do also think the entire economic system itself is heading for a wreckage, sooner or later, regardless of what we do to improve it.

Its central workings don't allow for an efficient use of resources (human and otherwise) and there is a tremendous struggle for many just to meet basic needs.

: )

Posted 1 year ago #
Starss
Member

In my humble opinion, change is coming. I have seen enormous changes in my
own lifetime. In my youth, black people were a minority...today...they can be
anything they set out to be. I, being human felt sorry for them then , but that was
not the solution. The solution is to accept, then promote everyone from within
yourself. Walk away from foolishness, promote the positive...and always look
for a positive to promote, or create a positive to promote.
Years ago I had just moved to a new community and enrolled my children in school.
They came home the first day and said School was scary. Scary? I asked. The kids
are threatening the teachers.
I showed up at school the next day.. Sure enough, gangs of elementary students,
were threatening...the language, the bullying...the school had been taken over by
dozens of gangs and the school staff was overwhelmed. The rest rooms were a mess,
with cigarettes and worse, and the hallways showed signs of damage.
There was destruction of school property and no one felt safe just walking down
the hallways. ... even me...
I went to see the principal...and we discussed the problem. "I frankly don't know
what to do!" he told me. "I outlined all of the consequences for behavior in my
letter...but they still are doing it."
"And what are the consequences for good behavior?" I asked.

Posted 1 year ago #
Starss
Member

"Good behavior?"
"What reward do they get if they do good things?"
"Why...none."
"So you are promoting the bad...and you wonder why you have a problem?"
"I don't understand."
"May I introduce rewards for good behavior?"
"I guess. At this point I'm willing to trying anything." So I went home and
designed little reward tickets that a teacher or staff member could hand out to
any student who did good things. When the student had 5 good tickets, that student
was to be applauded in assembly..would be on stage and get a medal...it was shiny and had the students' name on it.
How could a student earn a medal? Picking up trash on the playground, keeping the
halls clean, or cleaning up the rest rooms, helping a teacher or another student, doing good. That was the only way a student could earn the five tickets to be traded in for a medal presented in the
Friday assembly.
Do you know how long it took to turn that school around? Three weeks. Students
were saying "thank you!" showing off their good behavior, asking what they could do
to earn a ticket. The principal called me into his office and was grateful. Gangs
lost their edge; each member wanted praise, not intimidation.
Love, praise and good works do promote wonderful things. Teachers were so grateful.
My own children could go to school and enjoy learning again. This simple principle
works for anything I can think of. Praise the good....always and the bad will go
away because there is no reward in it.

Posted 1 year ago #
Mary
Member

History repeats itself. And there is nothing new under the sun.

Sometimes I wonder if mankind either collectively or individually must get to some level of understanding before this kind of stupidity will not be repeated. Perhaps greed is part of our DNA ? If so , I think greed is a mutant gene that will exterminate our species if we don't watch out !

Posted 1 year ago #
Mary
Member

Also the fall of Rome has been compared to the current US economic crisis. Its not impossible or unheard of for a civilization to cave in on itself. Poor management, extreme debt, overextending military resources, subsequent hoarding,

Will the US recover from its past mistakes ? More importantly will any lessons be learned from the mistakes ?

Posted 1 year ago #
shin
Member

The trouble is that the US is quite isolated and b/c of its size could also be quite self-sufficient.
Oswald Spengler wrote "The Rise and Fall of Civilizations". He examined 7 of them and explains their rise and fall as follows. As they rise, internal pressures, material and mental ones, lead to expansion, conquest. An empire is created. In the process of expanding foreign elements are absorbed, but there is a limit to that, because with expansion he available resources get diluted too. When reaching the limits, the foreign elements become increasingly troublesome to manage and control, until one day control fails, the foreign elements take over, and freed up, disperse again.

For anyone looking for fundamental change in the US must therefore place their faith into a mass immigration of Mexicans or mass conversion to Islam. LOL

Posted 1 year ago #
Starss
Member

Perhaps the solution is not to count on stuff located at a distance, but
be as self-sufficient as possible in one's own community...sort of like the
way it was in the 1850's. Each man was a craftsman, the shoemaker, the baker,
the grocer, and each man had a necessary job in that community. There was one
medical person (dr/nurse/midwife), a farmer or two, (raising different crops),
a lumberjack, and some individuals had 2 or 3 jobs which they shared during the
day.
The second part might be trading too many items made here with another community
needing those items that has some goods you need. By the way, I believe that is
the future...because stocks, money market, banks and the whole money plot is beginning to fluctuate and crash....(and not the first time it has done so!) so it means that trading for goods and services may become normal...and there is little profit in it!
If an entire country is trading...not using money, the Internal Revenue Service
cannot make money...and the whole system goes down..
Like what happened in the 1930's in the States. Everything that was too fancy or
costly broke down because too few could afford it...

Posted 1 year ago #
Star
Member

until we begin to look at the problems we continue to bring upon ourselves and our home, we will not be able to stop this destructive cycle...

think of it...there is already the technology that will prevent us from destroying ourselves and our planet...

of course this will mean that many jobs will become obsolete...but many more jobs will become available...

already there are many companies that have already made the move...production of biodegradable products, including the very packaging of things that are necessary to our survival...

new technology has been presented at every level...we humans have gotten lazy in the way we shop, and we have become blind to all the garbage we are responsible for...our habits are killing us and the earth...many of our problems can be solved by just our own awareness of our environment...

as usual, it seems we fuck things up and then expect the government to fix it, all the while, we continue to do the same things...we want the gas to go down so we can drive our SUV's, and we are not paying attention to scientific warnings; we continue to waste water and other precious resources, and our home is overflowing with our own garbage...we have to fix it ourselves...we have to become individually responsible for our earth...and require the same from family members and our communities...we are going to have to change the way we live our lives...change our habits...

to truly begin to appreciate this very earth that gives us our life, and allows us to continue living it...if we begin with this, all other problems will solve themselves...love for our earth and humanity will bring even newer technology and newer jobs that are centered around healing the whole...if our efforts are not based on this, we will only continue to put bandaides on heart surgery...

we keep building hotels and malls and condos...30 years ago voices were pointing to what we are seeing now...

we have paved paradise and put up a parking lot...may we truly realize what we are doing to ourselves, and our home...and stop it...

Posted 1 year ago #
shin
Member

star

the thing is that only government can fix many of these global issue and often they don't have the will. Who else could pass a law against smoking in public places, ban the use of plastic bags for shopping, enforce the elimination of lead in petrol, declare areas as wildlife heritage, etc.?

The trouble is that governments world-wide happily give their power away to the big corporations while pulling the wool over our eyes.
You say we have to change. Quite right but the education system is designed to do just the opposite. Unless teaching at all levels becomes a "subversive activity" there is not much hope.

Posted 1 year ago #
Star
Member

shin, the government is elected by the people...until we the people decide that these things are necessary, and elect those that will enforce what is necessary, you are correct...there is little hope...

at some point, we the people have to take responsibility for allowing the wool to be puled over our eyes...this means educating ourselves on the issues...

we the people have to stand up and demand not only a change in our education systems, but a change in the way we continually live our lives...this means actively NOT shopping at places or eating at places that continue to encourage what is harmful...

if i remember correctly, part of the reason the cival rights movement was so successful, is the ban on businesses, especially public transportation...

will it be difficult? what is not difficult that is worth doing? we are lazy shin...especially Americans...of which i am one...and although i refuse to own a car, among other things, there is still so much that i feel i need to be doing...i realize most here think i am preaching, but what they do not realize is that i am preaching to myself as well...it keeps me honest, and dedicated, and encouraged when i have you guys listen and understand my concerns for all of us...

i am only human, and i get discouraged when my message is misunderstood...i feel overwhelmed sometimes...and yes, sometimes i just want to say to hell with it...but something deep down will not allow me to do so...sometimes i feel so damn alone...and while i know that is not the case, it still feels like it sometimes...

Posted 1 year ago #

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